Submitting scores on a Captain's Away Day

[IanM]

Spookily, just heard back from the Seniors Capt. His away day wasn't qualifying, until someone pointed out that there was no reason for it not to be. So it was. No one complained about it or withdrew.

Most folk just get on with it.

 

[DonRixon]

The format is Singles Stableford on a Q-course in Summer with money prizes & no gimmies.
Captain describes it as a 'fun day' for everyone to enjoy themselves.
It satisfies all the requirements for an 'acceptable score' so H/cap Sec expects all to be returned.
QUESTION? Should you have to?

Whenever money is a prize then all cards should be submitted. It eradicates the bandits. We had a guy at our club who played off 11 but was comfortably a Cat 1 golfer, he would consistently mop up the prizes in the swindle and his handicap never moved.

 

[badgergm]

Spookily, just heard back from the Seniors Capt. His away day wasn't qualifying, until someone pointed out that there was no reason for it not to be. So it was. No one complained about it or withdrew.

Most folk just get on with it.

Yep.
It’s a shame though. I will play differently according to whether it’s a qualifier or not. If it isn’t a qualifier then I won,t be trying to get the best score I can.
For various reasons probably - I’ll switch a couple of clubs, try shaping more shots than usual, maybe a flop shot that isn’t the percentage shot, etc. No way it meets the WHS criteria for a qualifier irrespective of a measured course, organised competition, etc.
One recent away day was Carden Park, which has a couple of risk/reward holes. Am I taking on the carry to drive the green (1 in 10 chance at best) rather than playing round the dog leg? Hell, yes.

 

[Backsticks]

Yep.
It’s a shame though. I will play differently according to whether it’s a qualifier or not. If it isn’t a qualifier then I won,t be trying to get the best score I can.
For various reasons probably - I’ll switch a couple of clubs, try shaping more shots than usual, maybe a flop shot that isn’t the percentage shot, etc. No way it meets the WHS criteria for a qualifier irrespective of a measured course, organised competition, etc.
One recent away day was Carden Park, which has a couple of risk/reward holes. Am I taking on the carry to drive the green (1 in 10 chance at best) rather than playing round the dog leg? Hell, yes.

For the rules guys, is the fairest thing to do in this tupe of situation, where you will play, and are obliged to put in a card, but wont really be trying, thus breaking the rules, to positively spoil your card?
By for example, carrying a 15th club, or getting yourself disqualified. Would that be a sensible way to maintain the integrity of the handicap system (and no, trying to make your best score isnt an option, so what is the least worst next option) ?

 

[Swango1980]

For the rules guys, is the fairest thing to do in this tupe of situation, where you will play, and are obliged to put in a card, but wont really be trying, thus breaking the rules, to positively spoil your card?
By for example, carrying a 15th club, or getting yourself disqualified. Would that be a sensible way to maintain the integrity of the handicap system (and no, trying to make your best score isnt an option, so what is the least worst next option) ?

If we are talking about integrity, here is a better suggestion. Why not just try and play some decent golf if you can.

It is like trying to deal with a bunch of petulant school children

 

[Backsticks]

If we are talking about integrity, here is a better suggestion. Why not just try and play some decent golf if you can.

It is like trying to deal with a bunch of petulant school children

Thats just not a solution. It wont happen.

If officialdom is offering only that position, then they are detached from the reality of amateur golf. People do, and will continue to, play golf where trying to have the score card bottom line is not the priority.
Which UHS handled fine - effectively your handicap was from rounds where you were signed up to try. WHS has a different template - which is out of step with how people play.

It needs to do better, and provide a better solution.
At the moment people are defaulting to not only what they knew, but to a solution they honestly feel does maintain an honest HI - not submitting cards. Despite the exhortations to put cards all the time. The same message that cards in some 4bbb is reinforcing.
But it isnt working. Mulligans and gimmies is also an imperfect solution, but still better than pretending the system is fine, which seems the official line at present.

 

[IanM]

It is like trying to deal with a bunch of petulant school children

And, if that's how folk see it, there's half the problem.

If change is imposed on people without their buy-in, they just carry on as they were.

It doesn't even matter that the change has merit or not! That's true in most walks of life.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Reading all the views has been very interesting.
The views have moved away from the OP's specific case towards a more general case. This is a natural and worthwhile progression for such a debate.

But I feel I should vote on the OP's specific case.
If the stipulation from those organising the day-out and competition is that it is to be run as a handicap qualifying competition, then anyone taking part should embrace this or choose to not take part. That appears to be the choice.
This view will put me in a minority, should I vote today.
I will continue to keep an open mind and see if I can be persuaded by well expressed views from the majority.

 

[rulefan]

money prizes & no gimmies.
It satisfies all the requirements for an 'acceptable score'

QUESTION? Why not? With money prizes are people really not going to try their best?

 

[D-S]

My view on this is that the WHS system, as laid out, is fairly clear. Those that have embraced it fully have argued their position cogently.

However, we are now well over 3 years in to this system and 3/4 of the respondents of to this poll, for perhaps a variety of reasons, have not embraced the system - I don't this is an aberrant result and probably fairly reflects views around the country.

This could be for many reasons, maybe the system simply does not fit into our particular golfing culture or perhaps the authorities have not communicated well enough for it to be truly accepted.

Either way we have some sort of two tier mish-mash which could be said is not serving the needs of the fee paying golfers adequately.

 

[wjemather]

For the rules guys, is the fairest thing to do in this tupe of situation, where you will play, and are obliged to put in a card, but wont really be trying, thus breaking the rules, to positively spoil your card?
By for example, carrying a 15th club, or getting yourself disqualified. Would that be a sensible way to maintain the integrity of the handicap system (and no, trying to make your best score isnt an option, so what is the least worst next option) ?

You are advocating cheating.
Deliberate actions to make a score from a pre-registered round unacceptable for handicapping could mean a penalty score.

 

[Imurg]

You are advocating cheating.
Deliberate actions to make a score from a pre-registered round unacceptable for handicapping could mean a penalty score.

I've seen "p" next to some players scores but I've really cottoned on as to what it actually means...is it a good score or a bad score or an average score..?
Either could be good, bad or indifferent to a player in certain circumstances.

 

[clubchamp98]

I've seen "p" next to some players scores but I've really cottoned on as to what it actually means...is it a good score or a bad score or an average score..?
Either could be good, bad or indifferent to a player in certain circumstances.

My card went missing once and I got a Penalty score of 36 over par.
Stupid for a single figure golfer as it just went straight through my scores without counting.

But if a high capper gets a PS does he get 6 over or 36 over which might make his cap higher or lower.?
Anyone explain the formula for different levels of player?

 

[2blue]

My card went missing once and I got a Penalty score of 36 over par.
Stupid for a single figure golfer as it just went straight through my scores without counting.

But if a high capper gets a PS does he get 6 over or 36 over which might make his cap higher or lower.?
Anyone explain the formula for different levels of player?

The Penalty on 1st occasion would be net par unless theres good reason to think otherwise. 36 over seems an error of 0 score on each hole, if I've got it right.

 

[D-S]

My card went missing once and I got a Penalty score of 36 over par.
Stupid for a single figure golfer as it just went straight through my scores without counting.

But if a high capper gets a PS does he get 6 over or 36 over which might make his cap higher or lower.?
Anyone explain the formula for different levels of player?

No formula for different levels. The committee can impose a penalty score equivalent to the players best/lowest score in their record or a neutral score (basically HI plus CR) which would be an average score or 18 net double bogeys the highest score on the players record. It all depends on why and what the player is trying to achieve. An automatic penalty score is just the neutral one as there is no knowledge of intent. The committee can remove or amend them.

 

[Backsticks]

You are advocating cheating.
Deliberate actions to make a score from a pre-registered round unacceptable for handicapping could mean a penalty score.

The system is telling me that going out to play now and not trying my best and submitting a score is cheating. So the majority of golfers are now cheating, most if the time. This is a mess of WHS's making.
Previously, these golfer were not cheating. So on the basis that we are going to cheat, only the mechanism that will be used is in question. The great majority are not cheats at heart. Not handicap manipulators. So are choosing to cheat in a way that they feel is actually MORE honest than WHS ! Playing, but not distorting their HI, so than when they do enter a competition, and try to produce their best score, they have a HI that works in that scenario.

 

[Backsticks]

From 40:00 onwards :

Similar discusion.

 

[Swango1980]

Thats just not a solution. It wont happen.

If officialdom is offering only that position, then they are detached from the reality of amateur golf. People do, and will continue to, play golf where trying to have the score card bottom line is not the priority.
Which UHS handled fine - effectively your handicap was from rounds where you were signed up to try. WHS has a different template - which is out of step with how people play.

It needs to do better, and provide a better solution.
At the moment people are defaulting to not only what they knew, but to a solution they honestly feel does maintain an honest HI - not submitting cards. Despite the exhortations to put cards all the time. The same message that cards in some 4bbb is reinforcing.
But it isnt working. Mulligans and gimmies is also an imperfect solution, but still better than pretending the system is fine, which seems the official line at present.

Don't enter the competition then. If the score isn't important, no need to enter.