SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Not when I am playing a match, then I play to win the match and my score becomes irrelevant.
The peasants are revolting
- Thread starter Tashyboy
- Start date
peld
Active member
if i look at our strokeplay Medals so far in 2021 (wont get started on the stablefords!), in 5 comps, there have only been 4 single figures guys in the top 3 (3 of which incidentally all on the same day, so in 4 comps there was one single figure guy in top 3). Also take in to account our strokeplay comps are on our championship course which is almost 7,000 yards long, so it puts off some of the higher handicappers too.
Our shorter course just has stablefords, these are winning handicaps so far in 2021 - 23,20,10,11,27,23,22,23,13,19,22,22,17 (the 10&11 was the same guy)
Our shorter course just has stablefords, these are winning handicaps so far in 2021 - 23,20,10,11,27,23,22,23,13,19,22,22,17 (the 10&11 was the same guy)
The Dog.
Active member
Apologies if I wan't clear - I said by all means participate but whatever your handicap is, on the date of a comp, it reduces to 24 because this would be the maximum allowance for the event.
A more draconian view would be the stance that Sunningdale take with visitors which is without an official handicap of 22 or less, you are not allowed on the course. I completely agree with this. Doesn't apply to club members of course.
BiMGuy
LIV Bot, (But Not As Big As Mel) ?
My old club had the same. Both played in the same comp on the same day, but get your name on the board.
One year I shot the lowest gross playing off 5. Which also got me the lowest nett.
The prizes for lowest gross were better then lowest nett.
Had a really interesting conversation with the captain about it. He told me in the club rules I wasn't eligible to win both. Fair enough. I'll take the lowest gross. Then he tried to tell me I wasn't eligible for that and I had to take the lowest nett prize. I asked to see where it was written in the club or comp rules. Of course it wasn't. Neither was the rule about being able to only win one of the prizes.
The truth was that one of our + HC members and a friend of the captain was second lowest gross on the day and he wanted him to be the scratch champ for that year.
I dug my heals in and gladly accepted the honour of being scratch champ and having my name on the board that year.
It left a rather bitter tast though.
sweaty sock
Hacker
The entire point of a handicap system is to give equal chace to all competitors. So as soon as you enter you should know it's basically a raffle.
If your main purpose of entering a handicap comp is victory, then you've totally misunderstood the spirit in which its supposed to be played.
For anyone who thinks their hard work and talent are under appreciated, there are loads of scratch comps, normally 36 holes, normally well organised, great value, and on above average courses. Hilariously, most Cat 1 golfers wont enter, because they are usually won by a select few talented types.
If your main purpose of entering a handicap comp is victory, then you've totally misunderstood the spirit in which its supposed to be played.
For anyone who thinks their hard work and talent are under appreciated, there are loads of scratch comps, normally 36 holes, normally well organised, great value, and on above average courses. Hilariously, most Cat 1 golfers wont enter, because they are usually won by a select few talented types.
BiMGuy
LIV Bot, (But Not As Big As Mel) ?
Sorry, but what is the spirit in which a comp should be played if not to try and win?
peld
Active member
isnt the entire point of this thread though that it doesnt seem to be working out equal to all competitors? evidence certainly suggests the new WHS system is favouring high handicaps for competitions
fundy
Ryder Cup Winner
if golf handicapping was done on the basis horse racing handicapping is this topic would be 100+ pages long lol
Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
I have experience of handicap tennis. Once had a 40 love per game start & my opponent wiped the floor with me.
fundy
Ryder Cup Winner
sweaty sock
Hacker
To perform your best...
What evidence?
What evidence?
BiMGuy
LIV Bot, (But Not As Big As Mel) ?
They tried to get me to take the lowest net so they could give the lowest gross to one of the scratch guys.
I said no.
r0wly86
Head Pro
is there evidence? some anecodtal evidence from some clubs in favour of that hypothesis some against
in my own anecdotal evidence nothing much has changed. lower handicaps very rarely win handicap competitions, especially stableford. Low handicaps are far more consistent and so their range of possible scores is small maybe 2/3 shots either side of their handicap, whereas a 28 handicap has a potential 10 shot +/- range. If the field is large then the chances of a high handicap having "one of those days" is high. But this was the case under CONGU as well.
Where a low handicap will do well is obviously scratch comps i.e. club championships, match play, and order of merit where their consistency pays off. My old club's club championships also had a scratch and handicap champion, no reason why other board comps coulnd't adopt thismodel
Rlburnside
Challenge Tour Pro
If more players pressed their committees for best gross and h/c prizes you would maybe feel better about your chances of winning.
fundy
Ryder Cup Winner
BiMGuy
LIV Bot, (But Not As Big As Mel) ?
Exactly. They clearly didn't want some chopper off 5 winning the main event.
fundy
Ryder Cup Winner
Think Id have asked who WE were playing in the next inter club scratch match very loudly in the bar haha
Crow
Crow Person
I imagine it goes back to the days when almost all golf was match play, one player against another.
In a triathlon or road race field you can compare yourself to everyone and get a sense of achievement, in match play you can only compare yourself against your opponent.
Would you be interested in running a race comprising only you and a top triathlete? I'd just end up feeling totally inadequate.
It would be no fun for either party and the same goes for golf in match play.
Handicapping came in to make a competition for both parties even when the ability was vastly different.
That mindset has been carried forward to most forms of play in golf and I think it works very well.
nickjdavis
Head Pro
Just been through our last 7 comps held this summer and looking at the folks who finished in the top three of each comp.
WHS Playing Handicaps of players finishing in the top 3 varied from 7 to 29 (our current lowest indexed golfer is 3.9 and we have about 25 single figure golfers)....the average WHS PH of these players was 18.4....the average CONGU playing handicap of these same players last October was 17.7. So its not as though the WHS has resulted in a huge hike in handicaps across the board compared to folks old CONGU handicaps (in fact when we transitioned I remember doing a comparison and found that something like 50% of players had indexes within 1 stroke of their old Congu handicap, 30% had lower indexes and 20% higher.....when you factor in slope to get a CH and then a PH I'd say that WHS playing handicaps were perhaps typically 1 shot higher than players old Congu handicaps).
If you look at the results from competitions played over a similar time period last year, the average CONGU playing handicap of players finishing in the top 3 was 19.7....so last years comps top three places were being filled by players with higher handicaps than this years.
At the end of the day, 1 shot here and there (and that pretty much seems to be the difference that WHS has made) isn't going to suddenly turn higher handicappers into world beaters. It may well be more of the case that lockdown has attracted more players to the sport....these will invariably be new players who will naturally have higher handicaps and assuming that any handicapping system makes it equally likely for anyone to win then you expect the winners enclosure to be filled with players with handicaps that directly correlate to the number of entries with those handicaps....the higher proportion of higher handicaps entering will naturally mean a higher proportion of them end up in the prizes.
I don't see any statistical evidence that low handicappers are being disadvantaged by the WHS at my own club and I've never seen anyone produce any hard evidence to support such claims from other clubs. That's not to say it doesn't exist...just that no-one has produced it to back up such claims of unfairness.
WHS Playing Handicaps of players finishing in the top 3 varied from 7 to 29 (our current lowest indexed golfer is 3.9 and we have about 25 single figure golfers)....the average WHS PH of these players was 18.4....the average CONGU playing handicap of these same players last October was 17.7. So its not as though the WHS has resulted in a huge hike in handicaps across the board compared to folks old CONGU handicaps (in fact when we transitioned I remember doing a comparison and found that something like 50% of players had indexes within 1 stroke of their old Congu handicap, 30% had lower indexes and 20% higher.....when you factor in slope to get a CH and then a PH I'd say that WHS playing handicaps were perhaps typically 1 shot higher than players old Congu handicaps).
If you look at the results from competitions played over a similar time period last year, the average CONGU playing handicap of players finishing in the top 3 was 19.7....so last years comps top three places were being filled by players with higher handicaps than this years.
At the end of the day, 1 shot here and there (and that pretty much seems to be the difference that WHS has made) isn't going to suddenly turn higher handicappers into world beaters. It may well be more of the case that lockdown has attracted more players to the sport....these will invariably be new players who will naturally have higher handicaps and assuming that any handicapping system makes it equally likely for anyone to win then you expect the winners enclosure to be filled with players with handicaps that directly correlate to the number of entries with those handicaps....the higher proportion of higher handicaps entering will naturally mean a higher proportion of them end up in the prizes.
I don't see any statistical evidence that low handicappers are being disadvantaged by the WHS at my own club and I've never seen anyone produce any hard evidence to support such claims from other clubs. That's not to say it doesn't exist...just that no-one has produced it to back up such claims of unfairness.
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nickjdavis
Head Pro
what evidence?
