The peasants are revolting

[The Dog.]

At our club, lowest gross is same value (pro shop credit) as second place for all nett comps. Tell your H&C chairman this would be a way to increase entries and hence comp revenue. We have even considered a second lowest gross, was debated, never came about. But good that it was given consideration.

I’ve written to the comps committee three times on the subject and got a woolly reply on one occasion. I’ve been a member of five golf clubs and this is the only one where the lowest gross is entirely ignored. It’s ridiculous really.

 

[The Dog.]

I couldn't disagree more. There's not another sport where the handicap system works so well. Where else can a 70 year old give a 20 year old a good match? How many other sports allow you to measure your progress so accurately? The problem is the players with unrealistic handicaps, especially unrealistically high, which is why I think board competitions should be restricted to people whose handicaps have "settled down"

As for low handicappers not having a chance, there should possibly be more scratch competitions - where the likes of the majority of us will have no chance.

Competition golf is fun & to scrap it would be a backward step, not that there's the remotest chance of it happening.

Without wishing to be too pedantic, real tennis has a brilliant handicapping system and would allow a club player to have a decent game with the world number one.

 

[Pants]

Many sports have a handicap system - some on an informal basis for internal competitions e.g. Tennis, Squash; others like archery on a national basis. I'm led to believe that horse racing has a h/c system for some races.

 

[RichA]

I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder.

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.

In decades of playing cricket and football, winning was always relevant and I always wanted to achieve personal bests. It was always competitive. It wasn't always fun or particularly recreational.
Playing golf, my recreation is now fun, win or lose. The handicap system gives us all a glimmer of hope that we might win today. It's golf's unique charm. We all tee off the 1st hoping to achieve a personal best, don't we?
I'm 50 and can no longer safely compete at football or cricket with folks half my age. Please don't take the opportunity to compete at golf at a local, friendly, amateur level away from people like me.
Surely, there are plenty of district, county or club v club comps for the better golfers?

 

[jim8flog]

One the things we have in every competition is a prize for best gross so the low handicappers always have something to compete for.

When it comes to trophies where the winner is best nett it will, in the main, always favour a player with a handicap that is reasonably higher than scratch and thus it has always been, although as a a 6 handicap I once shot 2 under and was between to the trophy by a 3 handicapper by one shot.

 

[The Dog.]

I think there is a place for handicaps and nett comps. But I do think that no-one with a gents handicap of more than 24 (I’d prefer 18 actually) should be allowed to win anything. Not sure about ladies - 36 maybe? The reason being that nobody should be being rewarded for playing the game at that level - it is a really poor standard of play. By all means participate but don’t expect prizes until you can at least break 90. I’m seeing more and more golfers that are new to the game that think their high handicap is fine because they can finish in the top ten. It’s taking away the drive and desire to improve with some people I think. A shame really. They need some tough love - 24 handicap is a really bad golfer. Apologies if the truth hurts anyone reading this!!

 

[Voyager EMH]

I’ve written to the comps committee three times on the subject and got a woolly reply on one occasion. I’ve been a member of five golf clubs and this is the only one where the lowest gross is entirely ignored. It’s ridiculous really.

Table it for an AGM and prepare a speech to advocate. Research what other clubs in your area do (you already know it appears). If you lose the vote, you will have a better idea of what you are up against, at least. Quite wrong that a small committee should have complete power. Challenge that power - it is the only way.
I've realised that the way a lot of members get something done, is to get their best mates to get on to the committees. None of my mates would ever do such a thing, I'm proud to say.

 

[jim8flog]

In a field of 50 handicapped golfers, any individual should have a 1 in 50 chance of winning, based on their performance that day, but regardless of their HI.
Surely it's only suspicious or flawed if the same individual keeps winning and their HI doesn't change.
The anecdotal evidence on here suggests that most clubs are seeing it being shared around with the odd moaner complaining about the other lot.
Is this just another non-story?

We have one player who so far has won 3 comps since coming back after lockdown. He is a long term player with plenty of scores on his record. Having checked his record to see if a review was in order I noted that those wins have reduced his H.I. by nearly 4 shots so no review necessary.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I think there is a place for handicaps and nett comps. But I do think that no-one with a gents handicap of more than 24 (I’d prefer 18 actually) should be allowed to win anything. Not sure about ladies - 36 maybe? The reason being that nobody should be being rewarded for playing the game at that level - it is a really poor standard of play. By all means participate but don’t expect prizes until you can at least break 90. I’m seeing more and more golfers that are new to the game that think their high handicap is fine because they can finish in the top ten. It’s taking away the drive and desire to improve with some people I think. A shame really. They need some tough love - 24 handicap is a really bad golfer. Apologies if the truth hurts anyone reading this!!

At our club, board comps max playing handicap of 24. Higher handicaps may enter, but strokes received will be 24 for the prizes. Been like this for several years and they haven't changed it.

 

[Sats]

To be honest they are low for a reason and if they are hitting form then there should be no reason why they can't compete. Likewise with high handicappers can have a purple patch and win stuff.

I'm off 11.6 atm and would love to be low and play at that level. Spoiler alert I've not won a board comp either and it's not diminished my love for the game or has any bearing on entering them.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.

I agree. But it will never happen, as I've been informed by my mates when we've discussed this. Of course, I know that, but we can still discuss.
My view is that it would be interesting to compete in Divisions, similar to football. ( I know that some clubs have divisions within the present system).
If , say, you are in Div2 ( former h.cap 10-18), you would play all on the same level. You could have promoted and relegated each year?
I know that there is a difference between 10 and 18, or between scratch and 10
But so there is in premier league football between Top 4 and newly promoted from Chzmpionship. - if you get my drift.
And, there, occasionally, the bottom beats the top some Saturdays.

As I say, it won't happen. The present system will remain.
I take BB's point re his friend, but h caps of 54 have got ridiculous. I think 24 should be the limit, for club comps.-by that anyone over 24 would compete at 24 in Club comps. If rollups want to give full handicaps, so be it.
One of those dilemmas where both points of view have merit.?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder.

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.

The first part I agree with - I’m always just looking to play my best and lower my handicap - winning is nice but not the reason I play. When I play in Club champs and the scratch KO then I want to win it.

But removing the handicap system for me removes one of the best forms of the game - the fourball Matchplay we all play as side games , the singles KO etc , swindles etc

 

[jim8flog]

I think there is a place for handicaps and nett comps. But I do think that no-one with a gents handicap of more than 24 (I’d prefer 18 actually) should be allowed to win anything. Not sure about ladies - 36 maybe? The reason being that nobody should be being rewarded for playing the game at that level - it is a really poor standard of play. By all means participate but don’t expect prizes until you can at least break 90. I’m seeing more and more golfers that are new to the game that think their high handicap is fine because they can finish in the top ten. It’s taking away the drive and desire to improve with some people I think. A shame really. They need some tough love - 24 handicap is a really bad golfer. Apologies if the truth hurts anyone reading this!!

I have played golf for over 40 years including over 30 at the same club. I have watched a great many friends slowly decline in their ability with age (me included) and under your system a great many of them would no longer be permitted to play in comps.

When we set a limit Handicap limit entry to our Opens which excluded a lot of these players there was such an outcry that we relented*. They had supported the opens for years despite knowing their chances of winning was very low.

* We now have a restriction to Course Handicap for the comp but do not restrict those with a higher handicap from entering.

 

[Neilds]

I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder.

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.

I’m with you on most of this. In the comp tomorrow I will try my best to beat my handicap and hopefully win in our side bet but I am under no illusions that I will win overall. Happy to get out and play, enjoy the course and the company and anything above that is a bonus.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I really don't think that would happen as that would imply participation is only about winning - which it isn't and most other amateur sports prove that.

I'm sorry, Amanda, - it would.? As Rich says, other groups would form where a chance of winning was available.
There is no way where I would ever, ever win a game of golf against a 3 h.cap playing level- ever.!. I'd go round with him, readily ,in a friendly game , of course.

 

[r0wly86]

I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.

There are some major differences, the sports you have mentioned are endurance events, a lot of people will enter as a test of character or a fitness challenge, saying that though, many of those events will have categories for people to be ranked in. You will have women under 30, over 30, seniors etc. So you could come 50th overall but be the fastest over 60, so you are categorised in a way that allows you to compete on a level playing field.

Other sports like cricket, rugby, football etc you will find people of similar abilities playing with and against each other, you don't have fat Joe from the Sunday league turning out for Manchester United during the week. If you got rid of handicaps this is what would happen to golf, people would play competitions based on their general ability, it would be no fun turning up each week and getting smashed by someone the equivalent of 4 leagues higher than you in rugby

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I think your last sentence just about sums it up.
To many opens have prizes with big money value.
That just encourages manipulation of caps and downright cheating.
A small crystal momento and £50 is enough imo.

Agree, except last sentence.
No, a shield or Cup is enough. ?Just the honour of winning. As I understand most Opens, the entrance money gives a good day - very good course, good meal etc. No need for high value prizes.

 

[Slab]

I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.

Weird, I would've thought the opposite was true and that in every sport the better you get the tougher it gets

If I win at mini go-carts I move up a class size and its immediately tougher, all the way up to F1. Same with boxing (or any other sport) if i win at local club I might move to county level etc etc and it'll always be tougher the better i get.
Same for golf if i win xyz comp I might move to abc regional/national all the way to the Pro tours, its tougher every single time i get better and every team sport too, footie team A are in div 7 and get better and every season its tougher as they move up the leagues. Every sport is tougher the better you get... that is unless you carry on swimming in the same pond as happens with majority of golf club comps

As we all know, what's different with club golf is that for many players as they get better and better and better... they still play against the same level of opponents year after year after year, by entering into a regular club comp they don't move up to a better standard of opponent and it will be a walkover time after time.
It is this very scenario that demands something like a handicap system is used to make running mixed ability golf comps worthwhile for the membership in order to be inclusive and get as many members as possible playing.
Without it you have a golfer/boxer (or any sport) who's capable of wiping the floor with their opponent 10 times out of 10... the poorer ability boxer is gonna stop getting in the ring & the better guy is barely gonna get a workout and there's zero competitive edge to the contest

The handicap system means that amateur golf is actually in alignment with every other sport & players will face a tougher challenge no matter how much better they get, otherwise what's the point of golf club running regular comps for either type of player?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Personally I'd be happy if there was a lowest gross in the Ladies Comps. Only one is the club champs.

I’d like a prize for lowest gross for each nine ? Last two medal comps I was gross one and two over for our front nine, then fate intervened (in the form of the Lucy Lockets). But I‘ll admit to being a little facetious about that ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I always thought the Club Championship was scratch.
So the best golfer in the club that day was champ, not the best handicap golfer.

We have Club Championships for scratch and handicap. The club champion is winner of the scratch.