Clubs not uploading WHS data from competitions

I was chatting with the guy who runs our twice yearly seniors 4BBB opens. He told me that over the last 10 years or so the top scores in the last few years are lower than earlier years.
It is unwise to compare scores for events in the past 10 years. Over this time frame we have introduced a totally new Handicap system with Course Handicaps, introduction of slope, then later introduction of CR-Par etc. to say nothing of changes in allowances 75% to 90% to 85%.
 
That doesn’t seem to be the case for the 4BBb we play

At the weekend it was 2 rounds - 43 and 47 the winners got for 90 points

It was 86 last year

80 the year before

And looking back scores normally around 84
It surprised me too. I usually am on starting duty and don't hang around for the scores to come in. But my perception from this and other forums is that scores were going up.
 
It surprised me too. I usually am on starting duty and don't hang around for the scores to come in. But my perception from this and other forums is that scores were going up.
That'll be because people on forums & social media have a tendency to cherry-pick isolated outlying scores and results (and embellish them, or even make them up entirely) that support a particular point of view. The pretense that these scores/results are evidence of anything never survives even the most basic of scrutiny.
 
It surprised me too. I usually am on starting duty and don't hang around for the scores to come in. But my perception from this and other forums is that scores were going up.

A lot of Opens over the last couple of years have seen the scores increase but a number of them have also been won by known HC cheats

It will be impossible to know anything definitive- people will only judge on what they witness at their club etc

And of course some just bury their head in the sand believing everything is perfect
 
That'll be because people on forums & social media have a tendency to cherry-pick isolated outlying scores and results (and embellish them, or even make them up entirely) that support a particular point of view. The pretense that these scores/results are evidence of anything never survives even the most basic of scrutiny.
Yes. Although I have read that which I refer to, my actual experience having been involved (as an unofficial official at other clubs' events is that scores haven't really changed.
 
Yes. Although I have read that which I refer to, my actual experience having been involved (as an unofficial official at other clubs' events is that scores haven't really changed.
Given the fact that players of similar ability have had a vast range of shot allocations over the time frame, the fact that scores haven’t changed is quite surprising.
 
Given the fact that players of similar ability have had a vast range of shot allocations over the time frame, the fact that scores haven’t changed is quite surprising.
Is that a demonstrated fact? What organisation has shown that?
 
Is there any figures etc from any governing bodies to show it to be a fact
If you were a 7 handicapper and a 20 handicapper playing for example Woodhall Spa in 2015 in a 4 BB how many shots would you get?
The same pair would get more shots in 2016 due to the change from 75% to 90% allowance in 2016. The same pair would get a different number of shots in 2021 due to the recalculation if everyone’s handicap in November 2020 plus a significant difference in the number of shots received due to the introduction Course Handicaps and the effect of slope in November 2020 not forgetting the move from 85% to 90% playing allowance.
Again after 2024 both players would receive more shots (2 more off the back tees) post April 2024 due to the introduction of CR-Par.
So given all these changes in the fundamental basis of handicap system well as differing calculation of course handicaps (which would result in large differences in the number of shots received in a 4BB competition over the 10 year time frame’ wouldn’t it be quite surprising if all scores remained the same?
 
If you were a 7 handicapper and a 20 handicapper playing for example Woodhall Spa in 2015 in a 4 BB how many shots would you get?
The same pair would get more shots in 2016 due to the change from 75% to 90% allowance in 2016. The same pair would get a different number of shots in 2021 due to the recalculation if everyone’s handicap in November 2020 plus a significant difference in the number of shots received due to the introduction Course Handicaps and the effect of slope in November 2020 not forgetting the move from 85% to 90% playing allowance.
Again after 2024 both players would receive more shots (2 more off the back tees) post April 2024 due to the introduction of CR-Par.
So given all these changes in the fundamental basis of handicap system well as differing calculation of course handicaps (which would result in large differences in the number of shots received in a 4BB competition over the 10 year time frame’ wouldn’t it be quite surprising if all scores remained the same?

That’s not really facts in terms of the actual scores being returned ?

That’s guessing based on adjustment of allowances

What if because of WHS the 7HC is now a 14HC or the 20HC is now 27

The people who were winning before on “x” points are now winning on a higher HC with more points

That’s what we have seen in our club -HI has increased , shots given has increased - points winning with - increased
 
That’s not really facts in terms of the actual scores being returned ?

That’s guessing based on adjustment of allowances

What if because of WHS the 7HC is now a 14HC or the 20HC is now 27

The people who were winning before on “x” points are now winning on a higher HC with more points

That’s what we have seen in our club -HI has increased , shots given has increased - points winning with - increased
You are right with the ‘what if x handicapper is now y handicapper’ but this is difficult to quantify as we don’t know about what changes have been made to ability.
However the fundamental calculations of shots received have changed dramatically and differently based on the level of your handicap (particularly due to the introduction of slope).
Shots received also changed significantly (up and down) dependent on tees being used due to CR-Par for all competitors, not just for higher handicappers.
% playing Handicap allowances (up and down over 10 years) changed the number of shots received, more so for higher handicappers.
So it is all extremely different,
Hence comparing absolute scores over a 10 year period is like comparing apples with oranges.
 
Good discussion using facts and data. We had a saying at work, "Facts and data kill arguments". If you want to argue, bring your facts and data to substantiate. No "speculators" permitted (much speculation starts with "what if").
 
Good discussion using facts and data. We had a saying at work, "Facts and data kill arguments". If you want to argue, bring your facts and data to substantiate. No "speculators" permitted (much speculation starts with "what if").
But a single data point proves nothing; and the reality is that almost all data can be cherry-picked to support any number of opposing conclusions, and hence perpetuate arguments.

In this case, any worthwhile analysis must include all scores, not just the less commonly occurring headline grabbing (winning) ones in isolation, as they can often be unrepresentative outliers (especially if posted by cheats, as often claimed).
 
Just some basic facts about my mythical 7 and 20 handicapper playing a 4BB Open off the back tees at Woodhall Spa. The assumption in this, is that at the transfer to WHS both retained their exact handicap levels of 7.0 and 20.0 - their is hearsay to suggest that the lower might have dropped a shot or so and the 20 might have gained a shot but I don’t know of any definitive data on this,

In 2015 the 7 would be getting 5 shots and the 20 15 shots. 75% allowance

In 2016 the 7 would be getting 6 shots and the 20 18 shots. 90% allowance

In 2020 the 7 would be getting 8 shots and the 20 23 shots. Introduction of Slope and 85%

In 2024 the 7 would be getting 10 shots and the 20 25 shots. Introduction of CR-Par.

And people expect the scores to be the same or comparable.
 
I have discussed with England Golf. Looking again at the club results I can’t find any pairs events that have been qualifying.

They just make them all non qualifying for various vague reasons.
This needs escalating to the county union in the first instance, not to EG.
The county will educate the club and remind them that they are required to follow WHS rules and EG guidance in their terms of affiliation, and not circumvent them.
The county will escalate via regional if necessary.
 
This needs escalating to the county union in the first instance, not to EG.
The county will educate the club and remind them that they are required to follow WHS rules and EG guidance in their terms of affiliation, and not circumvent them.
The county will escalate via regional if necessary.
I have also contacted WGU but had no response. Not sure how keen they would be to take this up, I have an idea they are all a bit too friendly with each other.
 
I have also contacted WGU but had no response. Not sure how keen they would be to take this up, I have an idea they are all a bit too friendly with each other.

Can imagine the club will be delighted that someone is looking to “dob” them in when it comes to Opens - Opens that they prob allow people to enter courses for cheap greens fees

Are people that desperate to ensure a 4BBb is Qualifying?

I’ll be amazed if any county will start coming down hard on any club - they will just stop hosting the Open
 
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