The peasants are revolting

[RichA]

I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.

At which point every comp is won by each club's handful of scratch golfers, everyone else stops entering and forms their own groups with some kind of level playing field.

 

[clubchamp98]

Tricky Trev ( hcap 15) me PP was runner up on captains day with 43 points to a guy who shot 44 playing off 27. There was a few grumbles but not from Trev. Anyway I pointed out that I won it around 2013 playing off 27 so nowts new.
When I could get a word in, I did say it probably has not helped that the WHS started when we were in the Covid and a lot of non golfers joined with high handicaps.
Another thing he was moaning about and I only half herd it. He was saying that England golf is asking that visitors from other clubs be allowed to play in board comps. I could of got that bit wrong, but it was something along those lines that brought him onto the “ cheating” bit.

Can’t see any club letting visitors in the board comps!!
Just about enough tee times for the members at mine.

 

[clubchamp98]

The low guys think so.

And in truth they could point at such as I. Come the Club Champs in September I can see myself playing off a CH of 12 or even 13 due to the way WHS is working for me, when last year in club champs I was off 8 and did a first round knock of net two under. Do the same this year off PH of 12 and I’ll be net 6 under. I know I am well capable of doing it, and indeed I think my golf is basically better a bit better than it was last year.

I always thought the Club Championship was scratch.
So the best golfer in the club that day was champ, not the best handicap golfer.

 

[AmandaJR]

At which point every comp is won by each club's handful of scratch golfers, everyone else stops entering and forms their own groups with some kind of level playing field.

I really don't think that would happen as that would imply participation is only about winning - which it isn't and most other amateur sports prove that.

 

[RichA]

I always thought the Club Championship was scratch.
So the best golfer in the club that day was champ, not the best handicap golfer.

Both at ours. Lowest gross score is overall champ. Best stableford is handicap champ. Everybody happy!

 

[IanM]

No need to scrap the handicap system...

- All standard comps at our place are in divisions.
- All majors are scratch, with handicap prizes alongside
- There's scratch knockouts and handicap knockouts
- We have (several) scratch teams and further handicap based teams, plus seniors and juniors


Handicapping isn't perfect, WHS (I am told) is statistically better than it's predecessor, but we all know that the top end of the game is played without it.

Handicap should be used to measure our competence, and allow competition, and not be a vehicle for winning holidays in Portugal.

 

[RichA]

I really don't think that would happen as that would imply participation is only about winning - which it isn't and most other amateur sports prove that.

It is absolutely not all about winning, but why would I donate a couple of quid a week, every week, to the same 2 or 3 people when I have absolutely no chance of winning?

 

[clubchamp98]

At which point every comp is won by each club's handful of scratch golfers, everyone else stops entering and forms their own groups with some kind of level playing field.

Yes the presentation night would be sparse.
Our +4 would win everything.

I think divisions need to be introduced ( ours dosnt) as a +4 cap plays a very different game to a 54 cap.

 

[clubchamp98]

No need to scrap the handicap system...

- All standard comps at our place are in divisions.
- All majors are scratch, with handicap prizes alongside
- There's scratch knockouts and handicap knockouts
- We have (several) scratch teams and further handicap based teams, plus seniors and juniors


Handicapping isn't perfect, WHS (I am told) is statistically better to it's predecessor, but we all know that the top end of the game is played without it.

Handicap should be used to measure our competence, and allow competition, and not be a vehicle for winning holidays in Portugal.

I think your last sentence just about sums it up.
To many opens have prizes with big money value.
That just encourages manipulation of caps and downright cheating.
A small crystal momento and £50 is enough imo.

 

[IanM]

Yes the presentation night would be sparse.
Our +4 would win everything.

I think divisions need to be introduced ( ours dosnt) as a +4 cap plays a very different game to a 54 cap.

That made me smile. If I played at a club where handing over the entre fee was completely pointless, I wouldn't. But of course you and your mates can have your own game and ask for the cards to count for handicap!

 

[Maninblack4612]

I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.

I couldn't disagree more. There's not another sport where the handicap system works so well. Where else can a 70 year old give a 20 year old a good match? How many other sports allow you to measure your progress so accurately? The problem is the players with unrealistic handicaps, especially unrealistically high, which is why I think board competitions should be restricted to people whose handicaps have "settled down"

As for low handicappers not having a chance, there should possibly be more scratch competitions - where the likes of the majority of us will have no chance.

Competition golf is fun & to scrap it would be a backward step, not that there's the remotest chance of it happening.

 

[rudebhoy]

just had a look at our last 10 comps, the handicaps of the winners were as follows -

16, 14, 10, 1, 5, 11, 5, 11, 15, 9

winning scores in stableford comps were 40, 41, 38, 38, 39, 41, 41
in strokeplay comps it was nett 65, 65, 67

so 3 Cat 1 winners, 4 Cat 2, 3 Cat 3 and 0 Cat 4. (Slope rating is 139)

Not the most in depth or scientific survey, but does suggest to me that Cat 1 golfers have got nothing to complain about (at least at our place).

 

[Rlburnside]

No need to scrap the handicap system...

- All standard comps at our place are in divisions.
- All majors are scratch, with handicap prizes alongside
- There's scratch knockouts and handicap knockouts
- We have (several) scratch teams and further handicap based teams, plus seniors and

Handicapping isn't perfect, WHS (I am told) is statistically better to it's predecessor, but we all know that the top end of the game is played without it.

Handicap should be used to measure our competence, and allow competition, and not be a vehicle for winning holidays in Portugal.

This is the way to go ? All our board competitions the big prize is for scratch and rightly so along side the prize for h/c , fair and no need for any moaning.

Our monthly medals are best net for all golfers which I have always felt unfair to the low guys as they seldom win at ours, I’ve suggested we have 2 prizes for medals as well, one for best gross and one for best net but wasn’t sanctioned.

 

[IanM]

Given this thread, what I really want to know is, was "ClubChamp98," scratch or net champ??

 

[AmandaJR]

I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder.

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.

 

[clubchamp98]

Given this thread, what I really want to know is, was "ClubChamp98," scratch or net champ??

Scratch .
36 holes .

 

[clubchamp98]

I couldn't disagree more. There's not another sport where the handicap system works so well. Where else can a 70 year old give a 20 year old a good match? How many other sports allow you to measure your progress so accurately? The problem is the players with unrealistic handicaps, especially unrealistically high, which is why I think board competitions should be restricted to people whose handicaps have "settled down"

As for low handicappers not having a chance, there should possibly be more scratch competitions - where the likes of the majority of us will have no chance.

Competition golf is fun & to scrap it would be a backward step, not that there's the remotest chance of it happening.

Snooker!

 

[Voyager EMH]

I'm bored less about board comp whingeing. I'll be playing in all ours and I'm HI 3.4 at the moment. Each to their own.

 

[Rlburnside]

I've said before I'd scrap the handicap system full stop. Only sport I've competed at where the better I've got the tougher it gets. All this talk of participation falling if people can't win doesn't wash with me. Take a look at cycling, running, triathlon events which are always well subscribed and 90% of the field haven't a cat in hell's chance of seeing the quick ones after the gun goes.

Golf is a sport (isn't it?) - if you want to compete get better and if you want to just participate for your own enjoyment and/or personal bests then that's great.

That is a daft idea why would anybody pay a fee for a competition with zero chance of winning, it would never work and clubs would loose revenue.

All that needs to happen is for all competitions to have a best gross prize and h/c prize and have divisions.

Would this not be better? and keep you proper golfers happy ?

I’ve been playing for over 30 years and much as I try I can’t get any better ?

 

[IanM]

I guess it's just me who plays simply to do my best and winning is irrelevant. When I competed in road running and triathlon it was simply about beating my PB, performing to the best of my ability and having fun. I entered competitions to test myself against the rest of the field. Ok so I was pretty decent and had a chance of a podium BUT it was mainly about putting the training to the test and hopefully having the competitive environment to push me harder.

I've never understood why golf is different in trying to equalise the field but there it is.

I agree with you, but golf does this in some events and not in others. If clubs don't get the application of this right, it does lead to issues like discussed here.

I won the "net" prize in the club champs once...but I would never say I won the club champs. I had a net 68 off 12... but the winner had 69 gross, which is better than an 80 in anyone's maths.