The future of golf clubs ??

Val

Ryder Cup Winner
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Messages
12,393
Location
Central Scotland
Visit site
Val

The point is you've asked the question several times and I've answered it fully every time. The problem is you seem to think that we may benefit from a booking system and that we don't know what we're missing until we introduce it. The members have said they are happy and voted a resounding I know. I really don't know what else you want me to say on the subject. I don't want it, don't think it's necessary and the fact we communicate well in advance and in numerous places means the members have no excuse not to know when events are on.

Everyone seems to find a niche and fit their golf in and I don't think anyone is really struggling to get a game whether that's as a roll up group player or a social golfer playing with their mates. You may well be curious but I've explained the club doesn't fear change but simply doesn't see a need to make such a big change for something no one wants or for which there is no need. It's frustrating when you explain it several times and others inculding Hawkeye reiterate the same point

Homer you didn't once answer yes or no, you said the same thing twice which was how could it be better. My question was purely hypothetical with the mindset of golf clubs fearing change rather than taking something that was better, even after explaining that mindset to you you didn't answer and became rude. The question could have been asked to anyone on this thread it just so happened that I followed you and Hawkeyes posts, I wasn't trying to convince you your club is wrong, right or whatever. Unfortunately you seem to think that was the case.

Like I said, you proved to me what others have said, you are rude, ignorant and arrogant, I hadn't seen it before but now i have so i'll know in future.
 

HomerJSimpson

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
70,666
Location
Bracknell - Berkshire
Visit site
Why answer yes or no. I've explained the position. Others with a similar system on non-booking have said it works for them too but you seem to think I've become rude but there are only so many ways you can say the club is happy with the way we operate (Call it YES if it answers the question to your satisfaction) and the members don't want it. I've taken the time to answer as fully as I can and you resort to name calling. rude. Moi?
 

richart

Major Champion
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Messages
19,012
Location
Surrey
Visit site
Val, how do you measure that a booking system works ? You introduce it at my Club, and 50 members leave. The remaining members think it is great, can't understand why it wasn't introduced earlier. Has it worked ? Club which breaks even currently, is now going to be losing £70,000 plus a year. We are a traditional members club, surrounded by other similar Clubs. Speak to our members, and the vast majority like me love the place, and don't want change. Upset them though and we risk them going and joining another decent course a few miles away.

Getting new members to join a Club is great, but for most Clubs that is tens at most a year. Keeping existing members happy is far more important, as it is very easy to leave a Club. Look at the forumers that would leave if their Club introduced mats for three months in the winter. Over 50% of our members are seniors, and they are the hardest group to convince that change is good.
 

Val

Ryder Cup Winner
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Messages
12,393
Location
Central Scotland
Visit site
Why answer yes or no. I've explained the position. Others with a similar system on non-booking have said it works for them too but you seem to think I've become rude but there are only so many ways you can say the club is happy with the way we operate (Call it YES if it answers the question to your satisfaction) and the members don't want it. I've taken the time to answer as fully as I can and you resort to name calling. rude. Moi?

The question only required Yes or No and I wont explain why again.

And yes, the minute you said I became a bore was the minute you became rude (amongst other things already highlighted).
 

Val

Ryder Cup Winner
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Messages
12,393
Location
Central Scotland
Visit site
Val, how do you measure that a booking system works ? You introduce it at my Club, and 50 members leave. The remaining members think it is great, can't understand why it wasn't introduced earlier. Has it worked ? Club which breaks even currently, is now going to be losing £70,000 plus a year. We are a traditional members club, surrounded by other similar Clubs. Speak to our members, and the vast majority like me love the place, and don't want change. Upset them though and we risk them going and joining another decent course a few miles away.

Getting new members to join a Club is great, but for most Clubs that is tens at most a year. Keeping existing members happy is far more important, as it is very easy to leave a Club. Look at the forumers that would leave if their Club introduced mats for three months in the winter. Over 50% of our members are seniors, and they are the hardest group to convince that change is good.

Unsure Rich, if you are saying 50 leave because of the online system then thats a failure and would need addressed for sure. Once we got into the crux of this debate it's without doubt apparent that a good non online system is better than a poor online system, there is a lot of trial and error to get it right. Ultimately for comps then online booking without doubt works best for most with Phils club being an example of using the best parts of both systems to their advantage.

What I have seen is the demographics of clubs in your neck of the woods being different to what we have up here, you wont have a roll up on a Saturday at 99% of clubs in Scotland in season as that is comp day and the tee will be full way into the afternoon, but many clubs in the south (ie midlands or more south) seem to have fewer Saturday comps.
 
D

Deleted member 15344

Guest
Us carpark members don't appear to be very popular :(.. If only 1 person would ask for the reason why we don't go into the clubhouse after most rounds.. Still, it's probably easier just to make a judgement and move on... ;)

Genuine question - why don't you go into the clubhouse after?

I can understand people at times are stretched for time so won't alwats stay for a drink
 

NWJocko

Tour Winner
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
4,945
Location
Lancs
Visit site
Val, how do you measure that a booking system works ? You introduce it at my Club, and 50 members leave. The remaining members think it is great, can't understand why it wasn't introduced earlier. Has it worked ? Club which breaks even currently, is now going to be losing £70,000 plus a year. We are a traditional members club, surrounded by other similar Clubs. Speak to our members, and the vast majority like me love the place, and don't want change. Upset them though and we risk them going and joining another decent course a few miles away.

Getting new members to join a Club is great, but for most Clubs that is tens at most a year. Keeping existing members happy is far more important, as it is very easy to leave a Club. Look at the forumers that would leave if their Club introduced mats for three months in the winter. Over 50% of our members are seniors, and they are the hardest group to convince that change is good.

Not sure anyone suggested you should change, more providing the benefits to their club/circumstances as they see them.

I don't really like or agree with the inference that any club with a booking system isn't "a traditional members club"

Having learned more about how rock up and play clubs actually work (bookings for comps, arranged times for roll ups etc) the difference actually isn't as big as I thought.
 

richart

Major Champion
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Messages
19,012
Location
Surrey
Visit site
I don't really like or agree with the inference that any club with a booking system isn't "a traditional members club"
I am not saying that and think you are reading too much into what I said. I only ever comment on my Club as that is all I know. We are a 'traditional' club in that we don't change much, our members on average are fairly old, and we have to compete against a lot of similar Clubs for members. The Club is over a 100 years old, and designed by Harry Colt. We make no changes to the course without referring to the Colt Foundation. That is what I would call a traditional club.

We do have a booking system for all competitions, and during the summer there is a competition most weekends, either on a Saturday or Sunday. A good balance between competitions and social golf I believe.

I don't have a problem with a booking system, and when I ring up another club to play which I do regularily, it is great to be able to book a tee time. I just don't want a full booking system at my club, as it doesn't suit me, and I believe it wouldn't suit a lot of other members.

Not sure why those with a booking system, seem to think they know best for a Club they know nothing about.:confused: I would never knock a club with one, and if someone has got that impression I apologise.
 

Val

Ryder Cup Winner
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Messages
12,393
Location
Central Scotland
Visit site
I don't have a problem with a booking system, and when I ring up another club to play which I do regularily, it is great to be able to book a tee time. I just don't want a full booking system at my club, as it doesn't suit me, and I believe it wouldn't suit a lot of other members.

Not sure why those with a booking system, seem to think they know best for a Club they know nothing about.:confused: I would never knock a club with one, and if someone has got that impression I apologise.

You are spot on Rich, I think what has become more apparent that when people look outside of their own clubs objectively and view the merits of the opposite system to what they have then there is a general acceptance of the merits of both systems. I personally think that for a lot of clubs a mix of both would work very well and using yours and Phils club as examples show that. Where clubs have a lot of roll up's then online systems can be difficult to work, we manage at ours with an online system but I know others can't see how it can work but it does.

Where cubs want to attract a number of visitors to their club in an effort to up their revenue then I think it's a no brainer having a full online system if possible. I said it before that if I had a choice of 2 clubs to visit, both similar in quality and price and one had an online system and the other I had to call up and see then id play the one with the online system because I can make the booking there and then and the job is done.
 

richart

Major Champion
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Messages
19,012
Location
Surrey
Visit site
You are spot on Rich, I think what has become more apparent that when people look outside of their own clubs objectively and view the merits of the opposite system to what they have then there is a general acceptance of the merits of both systems. I personally think that for a lot of clubs a mix of both would work very well and using yours and Phils club as examples show that. Where clubs have a lot of roll up's then online systems can be difficult to work, we manage at ours with an online system but I know others can't see how it can work but it does.

Where cubs want to attract a number of visitors to their club in an effort to up their revenue then I think it's a no brainer having a full online system if possible. I said it before that if I had a choice of 2 clubs to visit, both similar in quality and price and one had an online system and the other I had to call up and see then id play the one with the online system because I can make the booking there and then and the job is done.
Good post Val.:thup:
 

bluewolf

Money List Winner
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
9,557
Location
St. Andish
Visit site
Genuine question - why don't you go into the clubhouse after?

I can understand people at times are stretched for time so won't alwats stay for a drink

I almost always use the clubhouse after a competition round. I'll make sure that there's enough time for a coffee with my PP's. The exception being midweek medals where I'm restricted by the same issues that stop me after social rounds. I don't have time. It's not that I have time, but choose otherwise. I genuinely don't have time. On several occasions this year I've left before finishing the round, never mind entering the clubhouse.. I can't tee off earlier, and I can't stay later..

Oh, and I've used the clubhouse at my new club quite a bit more than the previous club. The reason? My wife and kids are welcome. They can pop up after a round and have a nice lunch overlooking the 18th. At my previous club they wouldn't have been allowed in without wearing their Sunday best..

Working nights means that I already have to sacrifice a couple of hours in bed to tee off at 11 (up at 10, walk the dog, 15 minutes to course, quick swish and away). I have to leave at 14:50 to pick up the kids from school. An average round at my course takes 3.5-4 hours due to the geography and walk between holes. :thup:
 

Foxholer

Blackballed
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
24,160
Visit site
Over 50% of our members are seniors, and they are the hardest group to convince that change is good.

That's for sure! I was once told that the secret of succeeding with Seniors was being devious enough to simply plant the seed and patient enough for them to think that they came up with the idea! Women have been using a variation on that style for centuries! :rolleyes:
 

NWJocko

Tour Winner
Joined
Sep 23, 2010
Messages
4,945
Location
Lancs
Visit site
I am not saying that and think you are reading too much into what I said. I only ever comment on my Club as that is all I know. We are a 'traditional' club in that we don't change much, our members on average are fairly old, and we have to compete against a lot of similar Clubs for members. The Club is over a 100 years old, and designed by Harry Colt. We make no changes to the course without referring to the Colt Foundation. That is what I would call a traditional club.

We do have a booking system for all competitions, and during the summer there is a competition most weekends, either on a Saturday or Sunday. A good balance between competitions and social golf I believe.

I don't have a problem with a booking system, and when I ring up another club to play which I do regularily, it is great to be able to book a tee time. I just don't want a full booking system at my club, as it doesn't suit me, and I believe it wouldn't suit a lot of other members.

Not sure why those with a booking system, seem to think they know best for a Club they know nothing about.:confused: I would never knock a club with one, and if someone has got that impression I apologise.

Apologies if that wasn't what you meant, maybe how I've interpreted a couple of posts.

My club is similar, well over 100 years old, Braid instead of Colt though. I wasn't there when they changed to BRS but can imagine some of the membership were resistant to change, obviously not enough to stop it, who knows. My place would fall into "traditional" in my view.

I don't think anyone has tried to say what would be better for your club? Without knowing how it works all you can comment on is how things work at your own.

As I said, I've learned loads through this thread on how clubs can make it work without having never been a member anywhere with a roll up system (however it works, ball in chute etc). It's actually a lot more structured than I thought and can see why it works.

If that continues I can see no reason why they would or should change, run for the members after all.
 

HomerJSimpson

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
70,666
Location
Bracknell - Berkshire
Visit site
ANother traditional members club. We try and space competitions out over Saturdays and Sundays each month so there is always a day free for socila golf without any tee reservations. Even then, our booked tee times are only from 8.00-11.00 and so there's still a chance for people to turn up and go out after these times. In our case, it wasn't just the seniors that voted no. The majority of the ladies, who themselves make up a reasonable contingent of players, and those in 30-60 age bracket (the type golfers I typically play with in the roll ups) were all against it. We would undeniably lose a swathe of members of the club went ahead and the huge chunk of revenue that provides. Membership replacement never happens in such numbers and so it'll be alengthy process to get those numbers back.

As I've said, many times, members don't want a booking system and what we have works perfectly well for us. Even at peak time (non comp days) there are roll ups and gaps between the times these go out to accoomodate the needs of everyone. In the summer there's no need to book a time for an after work slot and plenty of opportunity to just decide to go to the club and play

We do accommodate green fees during the week and in fact, it's actually proved more helpful not having a booking system. A quick call to the shop would confirm if there was a club match or not but you then have the freedom to turn up and play at a time convenient to you. During the week, even with the roll up groups, there's never going to be a huge delay and we hav ethe option of a tenth tee start if the first is "busy." Indeed, you could argue that it benefits the so called car park golfers too, who may have a window of opportunity to play between school runs, kids clubs, work etc and so know they can rock up, put their shoes on and go out. Not something a booking system is flexible enough to do and while I appreciate you can always call the pro shop and see how busy it is, in hte summer, especially during the morning and lunchtime when players tend to start a round, the chances are a booking would be needed.
 

patricks148

Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
24,555
Location
Highlands
Visit site
Us carpark members don't appear to be very popular :(.. If only 1 person would ask for the reason why we don't go into the clubhouse after most rounds.. Still, it's probably easier just to make a judgement and move on... ;)

well guys look at it this way, at least you are members of a club, which is more that can be said for the person having a pop;)
 

Hobbit

Mordorator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
19,063
Location
Espana
Visit site
We do accommodate green fees during the week and in fact, it's actually proved more helpful not having a booking system. A quick call to the shop would confirm if there was a club match or not but you then have the freedom to turn up and play at a time convenient to you. During the week, even with the roll up groups, there's never going to be a huge delay and we hav ethe option of a tenth tee start if the first is "busy." Indeed, you could argue that it benefits the so called car park golfers too, who may have a window of opportunity to play between school runs, kids clubs, work etc and so know they can rock up, put their shoes on and go out. Not something a booking system is flexible enough to do and while I appreciate you can always call the pro shop and see how busy it is, in hte summer, especially during the morning and lunchtime when players tend to start a round, the chances are a booking would be needed.

We have a booking system, and more often than not I'll rock up on the way back from the office. No problem getting on. Occasionally I'll log onto the booking system for a tee time, especially if I'm taking guests. It works really well either way, its flexible. No doubt your version works really well at your club because your members are used to it and work with it.

However, with the booking system I've never had to wait 1hr 45mins next to a ball chute, on a cold winter's morning, which I did at my last club.
 

Slab

Occasional Tour Caddy
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Messages
11,054
Location
Port Louis
Visit site
ANother traditional members club. We try and space competitions out over Saturdays and Sundays each month so there is always a day free for socila golf without any tee reservations. Even then, our booked tee times are only from 8.00-11.00 and so there's still a chance for people to turn up and go out after these times. In our case, it wasn't just the seniors that voted no. The majority of the ladies, who themselves make up a reasonable contingent of players, and those in 30-60 age bracket (the type golfers I typically play with in the roll ups) were all against it. We would undeniably lose a swathe of members of the club went ahead and the huge chunk of revenue that provides. Membership replacement never happens in such numbers and so it'll be alengthy process to get those numbers back.

As I've said, many times, members don't want a booking system and what we have works perfectly well for us. Even at peak time (non comp days) there are roll ups and gaps between the times these go out to accoomodate the needs of everyone. In the summer there's no need to book a time for an after work slot and plenty of opportunity to just decide to go to the club and play

We do accommodate green fees during the week and in fact, it's actually proved more helpful not having a booking system. A quick call to the shop would confirm if there was a club match or not but you then have the freedom to turn up and play at a time convenient to you. During the week, even with the roll up groups, there's never going to be a huge delay and we hav ethe option of a tenth tee start if the first is "busy." Indeed, you could argue that it benefits the so called car park golfers too, who may have a window of opportunity to play between school runs, kids clubs, work etc and so know they can rock up, put their shoes on and go out. Not something a booking system is flexible enough to do and while I appreciate you can always call the pro shop and see how busy it is, in hte summer, especially during the morning and lunchtime when players tend to start a round, the chances are a booking would be needed.

If the norm is to be able to turn up & go straight out it sounds like there's a lot of empty tee slots going to waste on the non-comp weekends, you know a booking system would allow the club to fill these with visitor green fees! :)
 
Top