The Footie Thread

[Hobbit]

You don't do a trial run with the key international team. If someone wants to try a female coach in the men's game, let them try at club level. Do well, take it from there. Just thinking you can transfer the skills is crackers, different environment, entirely different level.

But there’s been male managers of the female teams… the sad truth is you’re right but perhaps for the wrong reasons. Down the years I’ve seen great engineers, admin staff and sales people promoted to management positions and then fail miserably.

And we’ve seen it time and again with great footballers failing in management positions. They have the experience playing at the highest level, Prem, Champion’s League and international level yet bomb completely.

There will be a female out there capable of managing at the top level. What will stop them is fear, testosterone, male ego & plain male chauvinism. But whichever female gets it the first time will make Southgate’s crucifixion look like a picnic.

 

[clubchamp98]

Surely the high number of foreign managers in the PL is helped by the quality of the players and more importantly, the wages.

It’s the language as well imo.
Most foreign kids are taught English so any manager can come here quite seamlessly.
Most English kids are not taught multiple languages so not so easy to move abroad.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

But there’s been male managers of the female teams… the sad truth is you’re right but perhaps for the wrong reasons. Down the years I’ve seen great engineers, admin staff and sales people promoted to management positions and then fail miserably.

And we’ve seen it time and again with great footballers failing in management positions. They have the experience playing at the highest level, Prem, Champion’s League and international level yet bomb completely.

There will be a female out there capable of managing at the top level. What will stop them is fear, testosterone, male ego & plain male chauvinism. But whichever female gets it the first time will make Southgate’s crucifixion look like a picnic.

It isn't comparable though. Men's and women's football run parallel but separate, same game but different. Does that mean there can not be crossover? No, absolutely not. I'm sure a female coach could do well but they would have to work through the system to an extent. To go straight in as national manager, crazy talk. Same reason you don't get appoint the manager of the National League champions, Paul Cook at Chesterfield if anyone is interested. Credibility simply isn't there until you do it at the higher levels. Maybe Paul Cook will get Chesterfield promoted again, maybe get a job up the leagues and then he has a chance to become England manager. Until then, not in the discussion. Same with female managers in the women's game.

 

[Hobbit]

It isn't comparable though. Men's and women's football run parallel but separate, same game but different. Does that mean there can not be crossover? No, absolutely not. I'm sure a female coach could do well but they would have to work through the system to an extent. To go straight in as national manager, crazy talk. Same reason you don't get appoint the manager of the National League champions, Paul Cook at Chesterfield if anyone is interested. Credibility simply isn't there until you do it at the higher levels. Maybe Paul Cook will get Chesterfield promoted again, maybe get a job up the leagues and then he has a chance to become England manager. Until then, not in the discussion. Same with female managers in the women's game.

Common sense should dictate that a solid CV should weigh heavily in the choice, and without those metrics it would be impossible make an informed choice. But there will be females out there with transferable skills. Most MD’s come from a sales background but end up managing a multi faceted organisation very successfully.

 

[RichA]

It isn't comparable though. Men's and women's football run parallel but separate, same game but different. Does that mean there can not be crossover? No, absolutely not. I'm sure a female coach could do well but they would have to work through the system to an extent. To go straight in as national manager, crazy talk. Same reason you don't get appoint the manager of the National League champions, Paul Cook at Chesterfield if anyone is interested. Credibility simply isn't there until you do it at the higher levels. Maybe Paul Cook will get Chesterfield promoted again, maybe get a job up the leagues and then he has a chance to become England manager. Until then, not in the discussion. Same with female managers in the women's game.

Yet in all probability we're likely to get a male England manager who has never achieved managerial success at any elite level.
So the main criteria is his being male.

 

[clubchamp98]

Common sense should dictate that a solid CV should weigh heavily in the choice, and without those metrics it would be impossible make an informed choice. But there will be females out there with transferable skills. Most MD’s come from a sales background but end up managing a multi faceted organisation very successfully.

Judging these females though is different.
If her CV was female only buisnesses and she was transferring to an all male buisness it would be very different.

The England men’s team isn’t multi faceted.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Yet in all probability we're likely to get a male England manager who has never achieved managerial success at any elite level.
So the main criteria is his being male.

It really isn't. That person will have coached male players, coached elite male players at club level. Entirely different level of play, style of play, pace of play.

Any female coach needs to coach male players at a decent pro level before being considered for the top job. Very, very different.

 

[RichA]

It really isn't. That person will have coached male players, coached elite male players at club level. Entirely different level of play, style of play, pace of play.

Any female coach needs to coach male players at a decent pro level before being considered for the top job. Very, very different.

I just feel there's a conversation to be had about whether a proven winner at elite managerial level, regardless of gender, is more important than experience as a coach of male footballers without having a track record of actually doing it successfully.

 

[GB72]

I just feel there's a conversation to be had about whether a proven winner at elite managerial level, regardless of gender, is more important than experience as a coach of male footballers without having a track record of actually doing it successfully.

It is interesting as, with a coaching team beneath them, some elite managers have actually transitioned sports entirely.

 

[Hobbit]

It really isn't. That person will have coached male players, coached elite male players at club level. Entirely different level of play, style of play, pace of play.

Any female coach needs to coach male players at a decent pro level before being considered for the top job. Very, very different.

Playing Devil’s Advocate, isn’t there a real danger here of subconscious bias. The powers that be had no problem appointing males to top female positions. I’m not saying you’re wrong but I’m not saying you’re right either. I believe an open mind is required.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Playing Devil’s Advocate, isn’t there a real danger here of subconscious bias. The powers that be had no problem appointing males to top female positions. I’m not saying you’re wrong but I’m not saying you’re right either. I believe an open mind is required.

I'm not entirely against, just go prove yourself first of all. I don't think that is unreasonable.

Males were used as coaches for many years, still now, because the depth was there. There were simply insufficient former female players / coaches out there to give a decent standing of coaching in the women's game. Now that more and more women are playing previously male dominated sports, those coaches will work their way through. We should see a decline in male coaches in women's football and rugby over the coming years, as it should be imo.

 

[Swango1980]

Surely the high number of foreign managers in the PL is helped by the quality of the players and more importantly, the wages.

Probably a host of reasons. Who owns clubs as well, and what their preference is? As someone pointed out as well, many foreign coaches speak English, not many English coaches speak French, Italian, Spanish, German.

These could all be barriers to English managers getting as much of a chance at the big European clubs, rather than simply down to quality?

I suppose what doesn't help is that, if you look at all the best teams over the Premier League years, and who they had in charge, we have:

Man City = Pep (Spanish)
Liverpool = Klopp (German)
Chelsea = Mourinho (Portuguese)
Arsenal = Wenger (French)
Man Utd = Ferguson (Scottish)

We're long overdue a club having a period of sustained success, with an English manager at the helm. Until then, I suspect a lot of owners perception may be that the foreign managers are just more capable of playing a (generally) attractive style of football that can bring success. Just imagine the day an English manager gets the job at a club like Real Madrid or Barcelona. Off the top of my head, last time I remember such an appointment was Booby Robson at Barcelona in the mid 90's

 

[PaulMdj]

Probably a host of reasons. Who owns clubs as well, and what their preference is? As someone pointed out as well, many foreign coaches speak English, not many English coaches speak French, Italian, Spanish, German.

These could all be barriers to English managers getting as much of a chance at the big European clubs, rather than simply down to quality?

I suppose what doesn't help is that, if you look at all the best teams over the Premier League years, and who they had in charge, we have:

Man City = Pep (Spanish)
Liverpool = Klopp (German)
Chelsea = Mourinho (Portuguese)
Arsenal = Wenger (French)
Man Utd = Ferguson (Scottish)

We're long overdue a club having a period of sustained success, with an English manager at the helm. Until then, I suspect a lot of owners perception may be that the foreign managers are just more capable of playing a (generally) attractive style of football that can bring success. Just imagine the day an English manager gets the job at a club like Real Madrid or Barcelona. Off the top of my head, last time I remember such an appointment was Booby Robson at Barcelona in the mid 90's

Maybe we shouldn’t just look at the now though, all those Clubs are over 100 years old and achieved success in Europe as well as England over the years.

Just when did it change and we thought we needed foreign players (I’m excluding British players) and managers?

Was it when started getting left behind at international level? or Club level in Europe?

I don’t know when the focussed changed, but English/British managers were still being successful in England in the 90’s early 2000’s.

 

[harpo_72]

Seems a strange attitude for someone who was involved in sport at a high level.

Not really, just seen the behaviour when the camera is off .. and how much better is the world ?

 

[Tashyboy]

The FA intoduced the following in 2012:

The FA came up with five key elements to enhance its training program: 1) Who we are: “[It's] making sure the players have a passion for playing for England. We celebrate each individual story and bring it together for the team,” says Matt Crocker the FA’s Head of Coach and Player Development. 2) How we play: Determines the specific style all teams should have, from the under-15s to the senior team. 3) The future England player: Looking for players whose characteristics fit the team’s style. 4) How we coach: Sets consistent coaching methods, and a unified philosophy. 5) How we support: "Aligned and consistent support services: sport science, medical analysis, psychology development,”

Obviously, each individual coach will have his own idiosyncracy, but the philosophy stays the same.

And using your point of Southgate being “succesful” you could add Carsley winning the U21 Euros, it’s seeing some positive shoots.

1 , after 8 years we still don’t know who we are.
2, how we play is rammel.
3,The future England player has to be able to defend and play out of position.
4, How we coach, still waiting for that to happen.
5, support 8 years of disappointment.

No wonder we all have opinions on here, we could all acheive that after 8 years.

 

[Tashyboy]

Which is why the under 21s is where to start. This is the system we play and you work with it. Get players used to playing in that.

For their clubs they get week in week out coaching. International management is entirely different but if the under 17 19 20 21s all work with a similar system

If you don't do a good enough job for the under 21s you don't progress up.

That was a fantastic reply until I realised the last manager of England previously was the coach of the under 21’s.

 

[PaulMdj]

1 , after 8 years we still don’t know who we are.
2, how we play is rammel.
3,The future England player has to be able to defend and play out of position.
4, How we coach, still waiting for that to happen.
5, support 8 years of disappointment.

No wonder we all have opinions on here, we could all acheive that after 8 years.

I think you’re missing the point Tash. Introduced in 2012.

Did we not win the Euros at U21 level?

Southgate has gone mate, move on.

 

[PaulMdj]

Not really, just seen the behaviour when the camera is off .. and how much better is the world ?

Did you not also see the dedication or hard work that was put it?

I’ve no experience at that level, but always thought there are some hard working devoted individuals.

 

[Tashyboy]

I think you’re missing the point Tash. Introduced in 2012.

Did we not win the Euros at U21 level?

Southgate has gone mate, move on.

That’s the point though, if we are still sticking to that 5 point plan it is not going to work. I would suggest that if I am saying I would have Pep as a future manager I am moving on. Finding it odd that others think the only manager we should look at has to have English credentials. Seeing as most players in the England squad have foreign managers they seem to cope ok.

 

[Neilds]

Why do some people thing that England should be winning every trophy there is? We haven’t won anything for nearly 60 years, English clubs don’t seem to favour English players and we are short of world class player (see Ballon D’Or nominees) so why do people always think that this will be time it comes home?
We always have low expectations for things like Wimbledon so maybe we should accept that a semi final every now and again is the right level for the men’s national football team