Tending the flag

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My first post on these boards so hi all.

This post caught my attention as I have been having some 'discussions' let's call them with other members at my club about attending the flag.

The specific incident that gave rise to the discussion was in a four ball match One player of our opponents stood beside the flag - his partner played a shot from off the green. The flag was not removed, the ball hit the flag and dropped. I said nothing. As it happens we won the match.

When afterwards in the clubhouse I raised Note 1 of rule 17-1. I mentioned that according to the rules the guy standing beside the flag was deemed to be attending the flag - and should have removed it (after the ball was struck) and as the ball hit the flag - penalty. This did not go down well. Petty, pedantic, would be against the spirit etc. Besides - the point was made to me - was does 'near' mean. I couldn't say. My view was that if you were standing round about where you would if you were attending and going to remove the flag in the normal way - then that is 'near'. Anyway - consent was that I was daft - the rule was daft and not what it meant, and should be ignored. Hmmm - I play as best I can as closely as I can to the rules as I understand them - and if a partner or opponent doesn't know the rules that is not my problem Besides you can't just ignore rules - indeed the rules tell us that we CAN'T agree to ignore any rule.

So was I correct in all of the above - I know I don't have to call the penalty unless I want to - but if I am correct I don't like being treated as a pedantic pain. If I call a correct penalty - whether my opponent or playing partner likes it or not - I don't expect to be 'ridiculed' (that's perhaps harsh on the others - but how I felt)

Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick.

 

[Colin L]

There is a Decision (just going out so I don't have time to look it up) which says that if you are standing close enough to the flagstick to reach it you are deemed to be attending it.

You are right about the penalty.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Thanks Colin. I think this scenario could be quite common - especially if play is a bit slow and/or folk waiting for you to clear the green. If a player is playing on to the green another player will stand ready to remove the flag to get on with the putting. My perception (no stats available) is that this may be more prevalent if the player about to play is in a bunker as other players are often quite confident that the bunker shot won;t get anywhere near to the flag or the player standing by it

 

[duncan mackie]

There is a Decision ......

You are right about the penalty.

17-1/1

"Note 1 to Rule 17-1 states that, if anyone “stands near the hole”, he is seemed to be attending the flagstick. Is such a person considered to be standing “near the hole” if he is close enough to touch the flagstick? - Yes"

Completely agree that this would, and should be a penalty - it's a classic case of the guy standing near the flag gaining an option as to whether to remove it or not based on his judgement as to which action would benefit his partner the most.

Think of it this way round - he stands there holding it and his partner overcooks the shot so calls over; no, leave it in now.... looked at like this it becomes obvious why it's not permitted!

 

[FairwayDodger]

Playing a medal round recently one of my partners was tending the pin while I putted from about 20 feet.

I hit a sweet putt, right on the line I intended; I thought it was in from about halfway to the hole.

She didn't take the pin out. I could not believe it! In the end the putt lipped out, going about 270 degrees round the cup without touching the pin. Probably the only time I've been glad a putt didn't drop.

Anyway, I'm afraid I had a bit of a go at her for leaving the pin in. The reason? She didn't think the putt was on line!

 

[duncan mackie]

Playing a medal round recently one of my partners was tending the pin while I putted from about 20 feet.

I hit a sweet putt, right on the line I intended; I thought it was in from about halfway to the hole.

She didn't take the pin out. I could not believe it! In the end the putt lipped out, going about 270 degrees round the cup without touching the pin. Probably the only time I've been glad a putt didn't drop.

Anyway, I'm afraid I had a bit of a go at her for leaving the pin in. The reason? She didn't think the putt was on line!

reading all these anecdotes reminds me why I get the flag out the way as early as possible! In fairness we don't have the raised areas that would mean I can't see the hole from many places though.

 

[Wabinez]

Unless I have an absolutely huge putt, then I always have the pin out when on the green. When I am off the green, I leave it in. It's a fairly simple thing to adhere to, and means I should never (hopefully) be caught out!

 

[Region3]

My first post on these boards so hi all.

This post caught my attention as I have been having some 'discussions' let's call them with other members at my club about attending the flag.

The specific incident that gave rise to the discussion was in a four ball match One player of our opponents stood beside the flag - his partner played a shot from off the green. The flag was not removed, the ball hit the flag and dropped. I said nothing. As it happens we won the match.

When afterwards in the clubhouse I raised Note 1 of rule 17-1. I mentioned that according to the rules the guy standing beside the flag was deemed to be attending the flag - and should have removed it (after the ball was struck) and as the ball hit the flag - penalty. This did not go down well. Petty, pedantic, would be against the spirit etc. Besides - the point was made to me - was does 'near' mean. I couldn't say. My view was that if you were standing round about where you would if you were attending and going to remove the flag in the normal way - then that is 'near'. Anyway - consent was that I was daft - the rule was daft and not what it meant, and should be ignored. Hmmm - I play as best I can as closely as I can to the rules as I understand them - and if a partner or opponent doesn't know the rules that is not my problem Besides you can't just ignore rules - indeed the rules tell us that we CAN'T agree to ignore any rule.

So was I correct in all of the above - I know I don't have to call the penalty unless I want to - but if I am correct I don't like being treated as a pedantic pain. If I call a correct penalty - whether my opponent or playing partner likes it or not - I don't expect to be 'ridiculed' (that's perhaps harsh on the others - but how I felt)

Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick.

If Mr. Grumpy wasn't tending the flag, isn't there a rule that would give him a penalty for being so near to his partner's line of putt?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It's a tricky one - "sorry - if you stand there I will call a penalty for attending the flag even although you are not holding it!"

I'm guessing that my discretion may in most circumstances lead me to NOT calling the penalty (depends who I am playing of course). Out of interest in a stroke play competition MUST I call the penalty?

 

[Colin L]

Decision 17-3/2 deals with these possibilities and is worth a read

a) the player tending the flagstick deliberately leaves the pin in so that his fellow competitor or opponent is penalised;
b) the player tending the flagstick deliberately leaves the pin in so as to stop the ball going any further;
c) the player tending the flagstick leaves the pin in inadvertently because it was stuck or he was distracted or in a daydream.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-17/#17-2/1

Your position in stroke play is always different when it comes to penalties as you have a responsibility to the rest of the field. You can ignore things in match play because it only you and your opponent(s).

 

[duncan mackie]

If Mr. Grumpy wasn't tending the flag, isn't there a rule that would give him a penalty for being so near to his partner's line of putt?

only if he was deliberately standing/walking on his partners line of putt - which would be a bit daft (but for the sake of this and other threads obviously not completely impossible ) as he would be in the way for the ball to go in

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Your position in stroke play is always different when it comes to penalties as you have a responsibility to the rest of the field. You can ignore things in match play because it only you and your opponent(s).

Well that is what I always do in stroke play circumstances - though it is a bit tricky when the rule is a bit obscure or seems excessive (as this rule can).

I guess it's unfortunate if a playing partner knows the obscure stuff. The upside is that that same partner will know rules that you don't and that could be to your advantage; that's what I always say when pointing out that a breach is about to be made if a player continues along a particular path, or when calling a penalty.

 

[Kellfire]

Does the person tending the flag have to remove it, even if the ball is being played up from off the green?

 

[Colin L]

Yes - that's what the opening posts were about. These threads do come a long way from where they started, don't they?

 

[Blocker]

I remember Golf Monthly years ago publishing a finding that you had a bigger percentage success rate of holing from off the green with the pin left in than if it was tended or removed !!!
Having read previous posts I think its grossly unfair if the flag attender has a senior moment and leaves the pin in when your putting that you get penalised 2 shots. I may have to seriously reconsider playing with the coffin dodgers section in future::mmm:

 

[upsidedown]

I remember Golf Monthly years ago publishing a finding that you had a bigger percentage success rate of holing from off the green with the pin left in than if it was tended or removed !!!
Having read previous posts I think its grossly unfair if the flag attender has a senior moment and leaves the pin in when your putting that you get penalised 2 shots. I may have to seriously reconsider playing with the coffin dodgers section in future::mmm:

Playing in a 36 hole Open on my 8th hole had a 30 footer for birdie when the thirty something only managed to start pulling the flag as my ball was dropping into the hole thus stopping my putt from falling.
He then uttered " Oh supposed we ought to give you that then"
No you ****** muppet it's a two shot penalty !!!
Tapped in for my 6 and winning nett score was 147, mine was 149 !!!

 

[sydney greenstreet]

Playing in a 36 hole Open on my 8th hole had a 30 footer for birdie when the thirty something only managed to start pulling the flag as my ball was dropping into the hole thus stopping my putt from falling.
He then uttered " Oh supposed we ought to give you that then"
No you ****** muppet it's a two shot penalty !!!
Tapped in for my 6 and winning nett score was 147, mine was 149 !!!

You could have claimed he did it intentionally and he would have been disquallified.