Attending the flag.

[rulefan]

Confusingly, the next section below that in 13.2b(1) implies a person doesn't actually have to be holding the flagstick to be deemed to be attending it:

The player is treated as having authorized the flagstick to be attended if:

• The player’s caddie is holding the flagstick in, above or next to the hole or is standing right next to the hole when the stroke is made, even if the player is not aware the caddie is doing so,
• The player asks any other person to attend the flagstick and that person does so, or
• The player sees any other person holding the flagstick in, above or next to the hole or standing right next to the hole, and the player makes the stroke without asking that person to move away or to leave the flagstick in the hole.

Hmmm

 

[rulie]

Confusingly, the next section below that in 13.2b(1) implies a person doesn't actually have to be holding the flagstick to be deemed to be attending it:

The player is treated as having authorized the flagstick to be attended if:

• The player’s caddie is holding the flagstick in, above or next to the hole or is standing right next to the hole when the stroke is made, even if the player is not aware the caddie is doing so,
• The player asks any other person to attend the flagstick and that person does so, or
• The player sees any other person holding the flagstick in, above or next to the hole or standing right next to the hole, and the player makes the stroke without asking that person to move away or to leave the flagstick in the hole.

Not really confusing, just adds more information to the "definition" of attending, as it was prior to 2019. When we teach the Rules, we say "standing close enough that the person could reach out and touch the flagstick".
From an unofficial document containing definitions that are part of the the Rules themselves:

Authorizing Someone to Attend the Flagstick The player is treated as having authorized the flagstick to be attended if: The player’s caddie is holding the flagstick in, above or next to the hole or is standing right next to the hole when the stroke is made, even if the player is not aware the caddie is doing so, The player asks any other person to attend the flagstick and that person does so, or the player sees any other person holding the flagstick in, above or next to the hole or standing right next to the hole, and the player makes the stroke without asking that person to move away or to leave the flagstick in the hole

 

[Val]

The player putting may need the flagstick to be in the hole to enable them to focus correctly on the target. However they may also be in the 'flagstick out' camp when the ball reaches the hole.

I get all that but for me its all bit of jeezo, really

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I get all that but for me its all bit of jeezo, really

Perhaps it is, and when I was asked to do it last Sunday I did wonder, but then pretty quickly I realised why he wasn’t being so daft.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

When attending the flag does it have to actually be IN the hole? If someone is holding it next to the hole could that be construed as showing the line?

 

[salfordlad]

When attending the flag does it have to actually be IN the hole? If someone is holding it next to the hole could that be construed as showing the line?

It may be in, next to or above the hole - see 13.2b(1).

 

[rulefan]

When attending the flag does it have to actually be IN the hole? If someone is holding it next to the hole could that be construed as showing the line?

10.2(b) Getting Help from Any Person or Caddie with Line of Play or Other Directional Information.​

The player must not get help with the line of play or other directional information from any person other than their caddie, except as follows:​

But this Rule does not prohibit any person from standing close to the hole to attend the flagstick..

 

[Deleted member 31467]

10.2(b) Getting Help from Any Person or Caddie with Line of Play or Other Directional Information.​

The player must not get help with the line of play or other directional information from any person other than their caddie, except as follows:​

But this Rule does not prohibit any person from standing close to the hole to attend the flagstick..

It's not the standing close to the hole bit I'm asking about. Say there was a 6 inch break on the putt and someone tending the flag rested it 6 inches to the side of the hole, could that be taken as assisting with the line?

 

[Steven Rules]

It's not the standing close to the hole bit I'm asking about. Say there was a 6 inch break on the putt and someone tending the flag rested it 6 inches to the side of the hole, could that be taken as assisting with the line?

Did the other person rest the flagstick in that specific position with the intent to help you with your line of play? Did you ask the other person to rest the flagstick in that specific position with the intent to help you with your line of play? If the answer to either of those questions is 'yes', then the answer to your own question is also 'yes'.

 

[rulefan]

It's not the standing close to the hole bit I'm asking about. Say there was a 6 inch break on the putt and someone tending the flag rested it 6 inches to the side of the hole, could that be taken as assisting with the line?

In which case all the other elements of 10.2(b), except the 'But ....', apply.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

Did the other person rest the flagstick in that specific position with the intent to help you with your line of play? Did you ask the other person to rest the flagstick in that specific position with the intent to help you with your line of play? If the answer to either of those questions is 'yes', then the answer to your own question is also 'yes'.

I was asking the rule if the situation arose.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

In which case all the other elements of 10.2(b), except the 'But ....', apply.

I asked the question in the hope of getting a straightforward answer but I'll just look it up for myself instead.

 

[Steven Rules]

I asked the question in the hope of getting a straightforward answer but I'll just look it up for myself instead.

Rulefan already quoted the relevant Rule:
10.2(b) The player must not get help with the line of play or other directional information from any person other than their caddie....

I am not sure what else you are hoping to find but, if you you do find the answer you are seeking, then please share it on this forum.

Kudos to you, though, for making an effort to research the Rule for yourself. More folks should follow this methodology prior to posting here.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

Rulefan already quoted the relevant Rule:
10.2(b) The player must not get help with the line of play or other directional information from any person other than their caddie....

I am not sure what else you are hoping to find but, if you you do find the answer you are seeking, then please share it on this forum.

Kudos to you, though, for making an effort to research the Rule for yourself. More folks should follow this methodology prior to posting here.

All I was asking for was somebody to yes or no. Does it really have to made complicated? You rules guys might understand all the terminology etc but sometimes it's not clear to the rest of us simpletons.

 

[rulefan]

All I was asking for was somebody to yes or no. Does it really have to made complicated? You rules guys might understand all the terminology etc but sometimes it's not clear to the rest of us simpletons.

It is often helpful to know the actual words of the rules. It may help to understand the reasoning behind a particular rule and why one situation is treated differently to another which seems to be similar.
A simple 'yes' or 'no' doesn't necessarily cover an 'it depends' situation. This, as it happens, is one such case. When I mentioned the 10.2(b) in post #88, perhaps I should have quoted the whole rule but I assumed that you would have looked it up and discovered the 'it depends' yourself.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

God this is difficult.

An example......I know that my caddie is NOT allowed to touch the green to show the line of a putt. Rule 13.2b says and I quote....

Authorizing someone to attend the flagstick which means to:

Hold the flagstick in, above or next to the hole before the stroke to show the player where the hole is

So, really simple question.....does 'next to the hole' mean it can be touching the green if it happens to indicate the line of the putt?

Yes or no answer only please.

 

[Steven Rules]

The premise of your question is incorrect. The caddie is allowed to touch the putting green to point out the line of play. (but this was prohibited prior to 2019)

The caddie is not allowed to set anything down on the putting green even if it is later removed.

10.2b(3) tells us that to “Set an object down” means that the object is in contact with the ground and the player is not touching the object.

Have a close read of 10.2b(1) and watch the embedded video in the R&A Rules App just below 10.2b(2).

 

[Deleted member 31467]

The premise of your question is incorrect. The caddie is allowed to touch the putting green to point out the line of play. (but this was prohibited prior to 2019)

Thank you, I was unaware of this change

The caddie is not allowed to set anything down on the putting green even if it is later removed.

That answers my question although the wording that I quoted above suggests he can touch the flagstick on the green adjacent to the hole

 

[Steven Rules]

That answers my question although the wording that I quoted above suggests he can touch the flagstick on the green adjacent to the hole

As long as there is no breach of this aspect of 10.2b(1):

• While the stroke is being made, the caddie must not:
  • Stand in a position for the player to play towards, or
  • Do anything else to provide such help (such as pointing out a spot on the ground).

 

[IanMcC]

The first issue is B is, IMO, in breach of 1.2a by failing to show consideration to others. However, that brings no penalty unless the Committee considers serious misconduct has occurred and the guidance on that issue suggests this lack of consideration doesn't get anywhere near serious misconduct.
In practice, A has no recourse at the time and needs to play on. Failure to do so on A's part would be a much more significant breach of the Rules- there is no right in the rules for A to refuse to play on as a consequence of an opponent being inconsiderate. A could report B's behaviour to the Committee and they might want to have a conversation with B reminding him of the mutual obligations players have. They might also advise that future repetitions could be considered as serious misconduct or result in administrative sanctions but none of that is of any immediate assistance to A.
No information was provided on how play ceased. If one player only refused to play on, then that is a DQ penalty under 5.7.

This seems the most sensible answer to a rules question, but itself does not say which way the tie should be awarded in committee. There is a hint that A should lose the tie for failure to hole out.
Suggesting that B should lose the tie in future events is interesting. I cannot see the difference in Bs actions here, and in future events where he does the same thing, and its considered a serious breach, and he loses the tie.

If this unfortunate scenario were to cross my desk, and the tie required a resolution, I would DQ Player B under 1.2a, as he acted 'contrary to the spirit of the game'. Why should he get away with it the first time, but be DQ'd the second time after a warning?

Its a great question though.