Marking a ball on the green Rule 15.3

[rulie]

The player is the sole judge, the rule is not qualified. If he wants your ball marked, you need to mark - that is precisely what the rule says. It could be worse, the player could also ask that any ball-marker be removed from his sight. But as rulie notes, the player can mark your ball himself in stroke play - which could be sensible if that avoids undue delay.

"Go ahead and mark it" is an acceptable response to the player. You haven't refused, just deflected! He might get the point sooner or later.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Surely as part of the process of taking your putt you are going to want to lift your ball to clean it anyway?...or if not to clean it to at least align a marking with your intended target line for aiming purposes?

Not necessarily & not necessarily before he putts

 

[Colin L]

"That player" needs to know that, in stroke play, he can mark any ball on the putting green without permission and without consequence. So, it you're raking a bunker, he's free to go and mark your ball if he feels it is in his way or distraction zone.

Would I be right in qualifying that to an extent? While the player can mark and lift another's ball anywhere without permission and without any consequence, it would nonetheless be a breach of 14.1b? I'm not aware of any permissive exception to the requirement to have authority to lift another's ball on a stroke by stroke basis other than the one applying to caddies.

I would hope, though, that any sensible golfer, far from regarding such an action as a rule breach or even a discourtesy recognises it as a helpful time-saver and just thank the other player for doing it. In my golfing circles it is commonly done, as mentioned, when someone has played on to the green and has to rake the bunker. If done for me, I also have try not to pocket the other player's marker absentmindedly after replacing, but that's another, sad, story.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

"That player" needs to know that, in stroke play, he can mark any ball on the putting green without permission and without consequence. So, it you're raking a bunker, he's free to go and mark your ball if he feels it is in his way or distraction zone.

As Colin has noted. I thought we had a recent discussion on this along the lines that I couldnt mark another player‘s ball without his permission. And that permission must be given on a case by case basis, and not something that can be given generally, say on the 1st tee.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

If you are asked to lift your ball by another player then you do so. You have already identified the rule.

But I thought you said he was a "mate".

"Mate....we need to pick up our pace of play."

"Mate....the Committee wants us to play ready golf."

"Mate.....I don't like how everybody else complains about how slow this group is."

"Mate....if things don't improve I'm going to start playing in a different group. "

It's pretty much this, isn't it. Otherwise you no longer play with that person. What the OP has described just sounds painful.

I'll automatically mark if I believe my ball is in the way, in danger of being hit, catching someone's eye etc. Otherwise I leave it, unless it needs cleaning. If someone asks me to mark, never happened so far, then I would do, even if I deemed it ridiculous. If it happened for 18 holes then I wouldn't be playing with that person again, too irritating and unnecessarily slow.

 

[theoneandonly]

This guy would soon get told to change his attitude if he played in the groups I do. I find it amazing anyone would just suck it up and mark their ball all the time.

 

[jim8flog]

You could authorise another player to mark and lift your ball [14.1b].

I know that .

The question is ' about 'unreasonable' requests to mark a ball that causes slow play.

 

[jim8flog]

If you are asked to lift your ball by another player then you do so. You have already identified the rule.

But I thought you said he was a "mate".

"Mate....we need to pick up our pace of play."

"Mate....the Committee wants us to play ready golf."

"Mate.....I don't like how everybody else complains about how slow this group is."

"Mate....if things don't improve I'm going to start playing in a different group. "

I have just picked up on one problem why this person is a slow player and there are many other things.

This guy has actually asked us if he is a slow player and we have told him yes. We have advised him on how to speed up which works for a short while but he quickly slips back in to old habits.

Generally speaking it is not me that is going to play in another group, there actually about 20 of us in the group and most within the group are some what fed up with him.

 

[salfordlad]

I have just picked up on one problem why this person is a slow player and there are many other things.

This guy has actually asked us if he is a slow player and we have told him yes. We have advised him on how to speed up which works for a short while but he quickly slips back in to old habits.

Generally speaking it is not me that is going to play in another group, there actually about 20 of us in the group and most within the group are some what fed up with him.

A suggestion: pick one of his poor habits that slow play - and hammer it every time you see it; even the most challenged old codger will likely get it if it is repeated enough. Then move on to the next one... and if he regresses on the first one, start hammering it again, every hole if need be.

 

[Steven Rules]

As Colin has noted. I thought we had a recent discussion on this along the lines that I couldnt mark another player‘s ball without his permission. And that permission must be given on a case by case basis, and not something that can be given generally, say on the 1st tee.

Yes we have had this discussion recently.

Rule 14.1b is quite clear:

The player’s ball may be lifted under the Rules only by:
*The player, or
*Anyone the player authorizes, but such authorization must be given each time before the ball is lifted rather than given generally for the round.

But there are no consequences or penalties for a breach of this Rule.

 

[salfordlad]

Yes we have had this discussion recently.

Rule 14.1b is quite clear:

The player’s ball may be lifted under the Rules only by:
*The player, or
*Anyone the player authorizes, but such authorization must be given each time before the ball is lifted rather than given generally for the round.

But there are no consequences or penalties for a breach of this Rule.

Yes, this one is so odd. Specific requirements identified but then the rule is left out of the penalty system (other than a very specialised caddie issue). This one just leaves me with "What were they thinking?"

 

[Swango1980]

The player is the sole judge, the rule is not qualified. If he wants your ball marked, you need to mark - that is precisely what the rule says. It could be worse, the player could also ask that any ball-marker be removed from his sight. But as rulie notes, the player can mark your ball himself in stroke play - which could be sensible if that avoids undue delay.

They can be thankful that this guy doesn't ask players to mark their ball, after hitting the green from inside 200 yards, just in case his shot hits their ball. Or he asks players to mark their balls on the fairway, if they are within 50 yards of his ball, because he hates to see that little white dot anywhere in his peripheral vision when he moves his head.

 

[salfordlad]

They can be thankful that this guy doesn't ask players to mark their ball, after hitting the green from inside 200 yards, just in case his shot hits their ball. Or he asks players to mark their balls on the fairway, if they are within 50 yards of his ball, because he hates to see that little white dot anywhere in his peripheral vision when he moves his head.

Feel free to read the rule again, and then ask yourself whether your scenarios fit.

 

[Swango1980]

Feel free to read the rule again, and then ask yourself whether your scenarios fit.

It is true, I only read what was copied on this thread. It seemed to be related to a ball anywhere on the course interfering with play, which could be close enough to distract the player in making a stroke

 

[salfordlad]

It is true, I only read what was copied on this thread. It seemed to be related to a ball anywhere on the course interfering with play, which could be close enough to distract the player in making a stroke

I'll repeat myself: read the rule again, and then ask yourself whether YOUR scenarios fit the rule. And good luck if you try them out on a referee.

 

[Swango1980]

I'll repeat myself: read the rule again, and then ask yourself whether YOUR scenarios fit the rule. And good luck if you try them out on a referee.

The player is the sole judge, the rule is not qualified. If he wants your ball marked, you need to mark

If a player judges a ball is close enough to distract them, anywhere on the course, then ball needs to be marked.

I think you are being deliberately unhelpful in your response to my post. You are happy to write a book about explaining a rule to some, and to others you just say "read the rule".

 

[jim8flog]

They can be thankful that this guy doesn't ask players to mark their ball, after hitting the green from inside 200 yards, just in case his shot hits their ball. Or he asks players to mark their balls on the fairway, if they are within 50 yards of his ball, because he hates to see that little white dot anywhere in his peripheral vision when he moves his head.

I did not cut and paste the whole rule because it was not relevant to my question

15.3 Ball or Ball-Marker Helping or Interfering with Play
a. Ball on Putting Green Helping Play
Rule 15.3a applies only to a ball at rest on the putting green, not anywhere else on the course.

 

[Swango1980]

I did not cut and paste the whole rule because it was not relevant to my question

15.3 Ball or Ball-Marker Helping or Interfering with Play
a. Ball on Putting Green Helping Play
Rule 15.3a applies only to a ball at rest on the putting green, not anywhere else on the course.

Cheers Jim

Although 15.3b (your OP) is related to a ball anywhere on the course (which would presumably include the putting green)

I didn't genuinely believe a player could take the mick, and ask players to mark the ball on any occasion. Although, when interpretations were given as to how 15.3b should be treated, and that the player is the sole judge, then I couldn't find anything in the rules to say the player who was asked to mark the ball could refuse to do so, by judging it unreasonable.

So, although my response was a little tongue in cheek, it would have been helpful if someone simply highlighted in the rules where it says players cannot act in this unreasonable manner.

 

[Colin L]

As I see it, a player has the right to require a ball to be lifted if he reasonably believes that it might interfere with his play. but that means there has to be interference as defined in 15.3b(1),. For example, interference can occur when a ball is close enough to distract the player while making the stroke. Put your example (exaggerated for effect, of course) of a ball 50 yards away to that test. What sort of wondrous peripheral vision does a player have who can detect a ball 50 yards away when keeping, as he has been taught, his eye on his own ball while making his stroke? It's like any other kind of relief: if the condition for which relief is granted doesn't exist, then there is no relief, no matter what the player may choose to believe.

 

[Swango1980]

As I see it, a player has the right to require a ball to be lifted if he reasonably believes that it might interfere with his play. but that means there has to be interference as defined in 15.3b(1),. For example, interference can occur when a ball is close enough to distract the player while making the stroke. Put your example (exaggerated for effect, of course) of a ball 50 yards away to that test. What sort of wondrous peripheral vision does a player have who can detect a ball 50 yards away when keeping, as he has been taught, his eye on his own ball while making his stroke? It's like any other kind of relief: if the condition for which relief is granted doesn't exist, then there is no relief, no matter what the player may choose to believe.

It is indeed exaggerated. But, I the player requests it is interfering with his stroke, I simply assume it is not ONLY the player that gets the final say on this. A referee could say the ball does not need to be marked. The player might try and say the very fact the ball is there, is putting them off mentally from making that stroke (whether they see it as they eye up their target, or whatever). However, a referee can say this is unreasonable.

And, if it happened in a club comp, it could be referred to Committee, who could also deem it unreasonable?