Red Tees for juniors
- Thread starter sawtooth
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peter_w
Newbie
Out of curiosity, is there anything in the rules stopping a woman having a “mens” handicap? For example if they wished to compete on a level playing field and enter the same competitions/play from the same tees?
Old Skier
Tour Winner
As you can now do mixed gender comps I’m not sure what the need is however I do see this as another reason that all tees should be assessed for all genders to allow those that want to to choose which tee they want to play off.
rulefan
Tour Winner
I think the definitions of Course Rating & Slope Rating and Appendix G clause e provide the answer.
Colin L
Tour Winner
I dread the day we have a transgender issue to resolve at my club but that's not the point of your question so let's not go there. I dare say a woman could join a club pretending to be man - there is a long history of women choosing to live this way - but again that's not what you're asking and I'm just wittering.
I can't offhand point to a rule as such, but it clearly could not be allowed. We have course ratings, slope ratings and consequently handicaps appropriate to gender for a simple, incontrovertible reason: men are generally physically stronger and so it would be inequitable for them to compete on equal terms. (Golf is far from alone in this.). There would be little point in a woman getting a handicap based on men's ratings as she would be at a considerable disadvantage in competition. She would not be playing on the level playing field you are looking for. Conversely, a man whose handicap was based on women's ratings would have an unfair advantage.
But golf is a great sport in that its handicapping system not only evens out the differences in ability amongst players of the same sex but the differences between sexes. Provided the courses have been rated for men and women, you can run a handicap competition in which men and women can choose whatever tees they wish to play from. At my club we will be able to hold competitions where I, a bloke, choose to play from our blue tees (the shortest course) and am competing against men and women playing off our white tees (the longest course) for the same prizes. There may be some barriers and prejudices to break down to get there but I'm hopeful.
Swango1980
Well-known member
This is an interesting discussion that has cropped up over the last year or so (or at least since I started to notice it). However, is the bit in bold ONLY true if male and female players compete off their existing handicaps? Simply because they are calculated differently.
However, the query you responded to was that, what if a women played under all the same conditions that a man did, including Slope Rating and Course Rating? I would expect her new handicap would be a fair bit higher than her current ladies handicap (maybe a scratch lady golfer now becomes a 5 handicapper when off men ratings - pulling numbers out of the air).
Simply, what if you had a lady who had the same driving distance and overall ability as a man. If they were both rated of "men" yellow or white tees, and both had an Index of 20, why would the index of 20 be fair for the man, but unfair for the lady?
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
QUOTE="peter_w, post: 2322032, member: 20220"]Out of curiosity, is there anything in the rules stopping a woman having a “mens” handicap? For example if they wished to compete on a level playing field and enter the same competitions/play from the same tees?[/QUOTE]
This is done by simply having the tees rated for both sexes.
However I would echo Colin's comments in the main but have played with a few women who could easily match or better a man for strength length of hitting etc..
This is done by simply having the tees rated for both sexes.
However I would echo Colin's comments in the main but have played with a few women who could easily match or better a man for strength length of hitting etc..
Colin L
Tour Winner
I'll have to come back to this later. I may have muddled up which way round the advantage/disadvantage would be. In the meantime, here's a challenge. To achieve a handicap index of 20 based on men's ratings, would a woman not have to be a relatively better golfer than a man on the same index? (I suspect the ladies among the forum members will be saying "twas ever thus in all things. 
)
)Swango1980
Well-known member
That is what I'm trying to figure out. The question would be Why?I'll have to come back to this later. I may have muddled up which way round the advantage/disadvantage would be. In the meantime, here's a challenge. To achieve a handicap index of 20 based on men's ratings, would a woman not have to be a relatively better golfer than a man on the same index? (I suspect the ladies among the forum members will be saying "twas ever thus in all things.
If a woman had the same exact ability as a man, including distance they could hit the ball, why would both the man and woman simply not have the SAME Index (when both using the same Course Ratings). The golf ball doesn't know that it is being hit by a man or a woman, they end up getting the same scores (over time to account for day to day variability and luck), and so their Index is the same?
Colin L
Tour Winner
What you say is obviously the case: two players of the same demonstrated ability shown by their scores would have the the same handicap index if based on the same ratings. But the expectation as expressed in the course ratings is that a male scratch player will, for example, get round our white course in 70 while the female scratch player will take 75. Does that not show that the female player has to be scoring 5 strokes fewer than expected of her to be a scratch player if the men's ratings were used? The difference will be greater for the bogey player but I don't have the figures to hand.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Yes, I accept that. But that just demonstrates that a male scratch player would be of a "better" ability than a female scratch player. By that I mean when you take all attributes, including distance hit. So, if both players simply had their handicaps off yellows, the male would still be off scratch, the female off 5 (or thereabouts).
Given than men and woman handicaps are calculated based on the typical distance they hit the ball, then why should Seniors not have their own ratings? Why not Juniors? Under 10's hit it the shortest distance of all grades, but it is OK for their handicaps to be calculated from yellow / white tees?
It is interesting as someone asked the question on twitter not long ago. I was able to talk about expected distances men and women hit the ball, but it still does not address the basic question. I wonder it it for the following reasons?
1. To have a fairly similar spread of women golfers at all handicaps (from scratch and above (and even below), the ratings need to be different. Otherwise women would generally just have higher handicaps
2. It would be difficult to set up courses that are a fair test for men AND women. In other words, a tough test for men would be ridiculously hard for most women. A good test for women might be too basic a test for most men. I guess you could still have different tees, but then there would be more of an "inferior" complex for any groups having to play off short tees, maybe.
DanFST
Head Pro
I did not know that. I have to give my PP 12 shots, he regularly hits 340 yard drives.
Time for reform!!
Swango1980
Well-known member
It was maybe a crude way of stating this quickly
. But yes, the ratings used to calculate handicaps are largely based on typical distances players hit the ball. Not sure of those yardages off the top of my head, but the landing zones for a male scratch player will be different for a female scratch player, based on how far they hit it off the tee (and subsequent shots). WHS also now looks at both scratch and bogey golfers (before only looked at scratch golfers) to come up with the ratings.If you are giving someone 12 sots who hits it 340 yards, I'm assuming they don't often hit it in the right direction, or their short game stinks
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
Back to the men/women thing. If the two play the same course, same tees, at their home club, all the time, never play any other tees, so their handicaps are based off that tee only, yes, the lady would probably be off a higher handicap, but why would she be at a disadvantage?
rulefan
Tour Winner
I can confirm that to have a genuine handicap junior boys must play off male rated tees. Tees only rated for females cannot be used for handicap scores. This is true for WHS and it was under CONGU.
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