LIV Golf

[4LEX]

If you check out his reasons for joining LIV, I think the money is a means to an end - as opposed to a the need to be constantly competing at a high level, in order to get to that end.
So competitiveness might go down, but maybe not against his 'peers' and he might even enjoy it more - as simply a recreation, having earned enough to be permanently comfortable!

That goes against everything elite professional sport is about. I watch to see people competing and fighting, not bloated egos having a laugh in tinpot events. That's LIV's downfall. Everyone is on a jolly and the whole spectacle is destroyed as it's more like a friendly roll up. Even the Senior's Tour has a more ruthless edge to it!

It'll be interesting to see how the LIV players do at Wentworth.

 

[RRidges]

That goes against everything elite professional sport is about. I watch to see people competing and fighting, not bloated egos having a laugh in tinpot events. That's LIV's downfall. Everyone is on a jolly and the whole spectacle is destroyed as it's more like a friendly roll up. Even the Senior's Tour has a more ruthless edge to it!

It'll be interesting to see how the LIV players do at Wentworth.

Indeed! The reason I consider LIV to be a 'circus'! Especially when/if the 'guaranteed rewards' concept, that seems to be gathering strength, is considered.

 

[BubbaP]

I believe at the moment none of them have made specific announcements for 2023, so we assume so.

[Not sure we need another LIV thread, but defer to mod like @PhilTheFragger on that.]

Subject has been discussed a fair bit, e.g.
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/liv-golf.111261/post-2539861

Some feel criteria will stay as is, some feel criteria may be altered a bit to recognise/acknowledge the LIV series and/or the current ranking situation.
Does seem to have become the new media focus now.
Think how they respond will play a big part in either starting the healing process, or widening the rift. May also highlight where the real power lies.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Merging this thread with the main LIV thread later as I can’t do it on mobile

 

[Mel Smooth]

I don't believe that will happen for long - otherwise it would be part of the 'natural' cydle anyway!

That has to be balanced with/against opportunities for genuine Euro players on PGAT - that Pelley has to plead to Monahan for!

He won't have to plead to anybody if he offers playing opportunities to people already on the European Tour, which they pretty much all are anyway - it's got absolutely nothing to do with Monaghan who plays on DP World Tour events, unless of course, they are co-sanctioned.

 

[Mel Smooth]

That goes against everything elite professional sport is about. I watch to see people competing and fighting, not bloated egos having a laugh in tinpot events. That's LIV's downfall. Everyone is on a jolly and the whole spectacle is destroyed as it's more like a friendly roll up. Even the Senior's Tour has a more ruthless edge to it!

It'll be interesting to see how the LIV players do at Wentworth.

I thought it was interesting to see how they did at The Open - remember, Smith knew he was pretty much going to LIV then - the money would have been on the table - and quite a few of the other LIV guys did Ok too.
The notion that they just want to arse about and pick up guaranteed money has absolutely no foundation.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Hasn't taken Smith long to start dancing to his owner's tune;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/62746193

The comments seem to have little sympathy for him or LIV generally; I quite liked the one about having got married but still wanting to see his ex.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Saudi just jailed two women for posting on Twitter. 45 years or so each.

?

 

[Barking_Mad]

I thought it was interesting to see how they did at The Open - remember, Smith knew he was pretty much going to LIV then - the money would have been on the table - and quite a few of the other LIV guys did Ok too.
The notion that they just want to arse about and pick up guaranteed money has absolutely no foundation.

Or you could argue his motivation was to win knowing it might be his last chance, at least for a good while, maybe ever.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Or you could argue his motivation was to win knowing it might be his last chance, at least for a good while, maybe ever.

You could argue what you wanted to suit your argument.
What you can't argue, is all these guys have worked extremely hard to get into a situation where they can make a good living from golf, and many of them on both the PGA Tour and LIV series have incomprehensible (to most of us) wealth, yet they still travel, and compete in order to increase that wealth.


There's no basis to suggest that they will suddenly stop trying, they all seem to want to compete in majors, they won't want to rock up there and be uncompetetive, so why is there this notion that once they've taken the LIV money, they will suddenly be unmotivated to win?

 

[evemccc]

You could argue what you wanted to suit your argument.
What you can't argue, is all these guys have worked extremely hard to get into a situation where they can make a good living from golf, and many of them on both the PGA Tour and LIV series have incomprehensible (to most of us) wealth, yet they still travel, and compete in order to increase that wealth.


There's no basis to suggest that they will suddenly stop trying, they all seem to want to compete in majors, they won't want to rock up there and be uncompetetive, so why is there this notion that once they've taken the LIV money, they will suddenly be unmotivated to win?

Once Tiger took the Nike money and had secured his family’s future he was unmotivated to win…

Oh wait…

 

[RichA]

You could argue what you wanted to suit your argument.
What you can't argue, is all these guys have worked extremely hard to get into a situation where they can make a good living from golf, and many of them on both the PGA Tour and LIV series have incomprehensible (to most of us) wealth, yet they still travel, and compete in order to increase that wealth.


There's no basis to suggest that they will suddenly stop trying, they all seem to want to compete in majors, they won't want to rock up there and be uncompetetive, so why is there this notion that once they've taken the LIV money, they will suddenly be unmotivated to win?

The basis is that most of us would ditch our careers in a heartbeat if we were offered something easier with a guarantee of life changing amounts of cash.
Some of us though might ask where the money was coming from and what we might have to give up in return.

 

[Imurg]

I don't think there's a basis either way...
These guys are now set for life...the motivation to make money must have diminished...let's be honest, an extra couple of million here or there when you've got 150 of them sitting in the bank doesn't mean much..
So they're playing to win....to win what?
Apart from the Majors, assuming they get in, what else is there to win?
The Bedminster Cup..I bet they'll all be striving to win that.
There's little incentive to work hard and play well..just a few extra million on top of their pile...

 

[Mel Smooth]

I don't think there's a basis either way...
These guys are now set for life...the motivation to make money must have diminished...let's be honest, an extra couple of million here or there when you've got 150 of them sitting in the bank doesn't mean much..
So they're playing to win....to win what?
Apart from the Majors, assuming they get in, what else is there to win?
The Bedminster Cup..I bet they'll all be striving to win that.
There's little incentive to work hard and play well..just a few extra million on top of their pile...

What's the basis to win when Liverpool play Bournemouth and they're 6-0 up - what's the motivation to score another three goals??
These are sports people, they are where they are because winning is in their DNA. So what if it's LIV event rather than a PGA event? - there's absolutely no difference - unless of course you've taken in all the spiel that LIV is an exhibition event.

 

[Imurg]

What's the basis to win when Liverpool play Bournemouth and they're 6-0 up - what's the motivation to score another three goals??
These are sports people, they are where they are because winning is in their DNA. So what if it's LIV event rather than a PGA event? - there's absolutely no difference - unless of course you've taken in all the spiel that LIV is an exhibition event.

Goal difference

 

[Swango1980]

You could argue what you wanted to suit your argument.
What you can't argue, is all these guys have worked extremely hard to get into a situation where they can make a good living from golf, and many of them on both the PGA Tour and LIV series have incomprehensible (to most of us) wealth, yet they still travel, and compete in order to increase that wealth.


There's no basis to suggest that they will suddenly stop trying, they all seem to want to compete in majors, they won't want to rock up there and be uncompetetive, so why is there this notion that once they've taken the LIV money, they will suddenly be unmotivated to win?

Surely you must understand that different people are motivated by different things. However, many people are motivated in their professional lives to become as successful as possible, due to being better compensated for that success and being able to live better, more comfortable lives. I mean, you say there is no basis for them to stop trying, and yet the single biggest general factor in anyone wanting to be a success in their working lives is to improve their wealth. It is clearly not the only factor, but the key one for most. It is a huge driving factor.

Before LIV, players had to be successful to improve their financial income and help secure their future. The better they did, the more money they'd win. The better they did, the more likely they would keep their card and qualify for the biggest, most lucrative events. That is a huge motivation. Take that away, by giving them a huge amount of money to start with, and guaranteeing them good money going forward, even if they are not at their best, you completely remove that element of motivation.

How motivated are people in here during your monthly medal? How much more motivated would you be if you won significant amounts of money for the position you finished (people would be less inclined to "give up" when they saw no chance of winning). How much more motivated would you be if, after a few bad finishes, your club said you could not compete in 80% of the upcoming medals as your form was bad? Or, if you already had tens or hundreds of millions sitting in your account, how motivated would you be to try and finish as high as you can for an extra £10,000?

If my monthy medal was to award significant sums of cash for top 20/30 finishes, I would be extremely more motivated. I'd be at the range 2 hours before tee time. I'd go up and practice nearly every night after work. If I get off to a bad start, I'll keep pushing, hoping I can still work my way up into the prize places and help ensure I will qualify for future events. However, if I had £200 million sitting in my bank account, and no danger of losing out in playing in future events, I'm no longer going to be motivated by the money. My mentality will be back to what is is currently with a monthly medal. Sure, I want to win. I'll get angry after a bad shot. However, I'll not go to the range beforehand. I'll just rock up, and what will be, will be. If I start with a few bad holes, I'll probably be a lot more casual and start treating it like a practice round.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Goal difference

So there's no difference between $120,000 and $4,000,000 then?

 

[Mel Smooth]

Surely you must understand that different people are motivated by different things. However, many people are motivated in their professional lives to become as successful as possible, due to being better compensated for that success and being able to live better, more comfortable lives. I mean, you say there is no basis for them to stop trying, and yet the single biggest general factor in anyone wanting to be a success in their working lives is to improve their wealth. It is clearly not the only factor, but the key one for most. It is a huge driving factor.

Before LIV, players had to be successful to improve their financial income and help secure their future. The better they did, the more money they'd win. The better they did, the more likely they would keep their card and qualify for the biggest, most lucrative events. That is a huge motivation. Take that away, by giving them a huge amount of money to start with, and guaranteeing them good money going forward, even if they are not at their best, you completely remove that element of motivation.

How motivated are people in here during your monthly medal? How much more motivated would you be if you won significant amounts of money for the position you finished (people would be less inclined to "give up" when they saw no chance of winning). How much more motivated would you be if, after a few bad finishes, your club said you could not compete in 80% of the upcoming medals as your form was bad? Or, if you already had tens or hundreds of millions sitting in your account, how motivated would you be to try and finish as high as you can for an extra £10,000?

If my monthy medal was to award significant sums of cash for top 20/30 finishes, I would be extremely more motivated. I'd be at the range 2 hours before tee time. I'd go up and practice nearly every night after work. If I get off to a bad start, I'll keep pushing, hoping I can still work my way up into the prize places and help ensure I will qualify for future events. However, if I had £200 million sitting in my bank account, and no danger of losing out in playing in future events, I'm no longer going to be motivated by the money. My mentality will be back to what is is currently with a monthly medal. Sure, I want to win. I'll get angry after a bad shot. However, I'll not go to the range beforehand. I'll just rock up, and what will be, will be. If I start with a few bad holes, I'll probably be a lot more casual and start treating it like a practice round.

Can I ask you this. Why was Cam Smith trying so hard to win The Open - even though he had already made a decision on LIV - indeed, why were there so many LIV players in the top 15 or so?

 

[evemccc]

Surely you must understand that different people are motivated by different things. However, many people are motivated in their professional lives to become as successful as possible, due to being better compensated for that success and being able to live better, more comfortable lives. I mean, you say there is no basis for them to stop trying, and yet the single biggest general factor in anyone wanting to be a success in their working lives is to improve their wealth. It is clearly not the only factor, but the key one for most. It is a huge driving factor.

Before LIV, players had to be successful to improve their financial income and help secure their future. The better they did, the more money they'd win. The better they did, the more likely they would keep their card and qualify for the biggest, most lucrative events. That is a huge motivation. Take that away, by giving them a huge amount of money to start with, and guaranteeing them good money going forward, even if they are not at their best, you completely remove that element of motivation.

How motivated are people in here during your monthly medal? How much more motivated would you be if you won significant amounts of money for the position you finished (people would be less inclined to "give up" when they saw no chance of winning). How much more motivated would you be if, after a few bad finishes, your club said you could not compete in 80% of the upcoming medals as your form was bad? Or, if you already had tens or hundreds of millions sitting in your account, how motivated would you be to try and finish as high as you can for an extra £10,000?

If my monthy medal was to award significant sums of cash for top 20/30 finishes, I would be extremely more motivated. I'd be at the range 2 hours before tee time. I'd go up and practice nearly every night after work. If I get off to a bad start, I'll keep pushing, hoping I can still work my way up into the prize places and help ensure I will qualify for future events. However, if I had £200 million sitting in my bank account, and no danger of losing out in playing in future events, I'm no longer going to be motivated by the money. My mentality will be back to what is is currently with a monthly medal. Sure, I want to win. I'll get angry after a bad shot. However, I'll not go to the range beforehand. I'll just rock up, and what will be, will be. If I start with a few bad holes, I'll probably be a lot more casual and start treating it like a practice round.

1) Most would accept that the most popular players can and do earn more through various sponsorship and leveraging their popularity in endorsements, than on the course — this is nothing new

2) The PGA Tour decided to aid and abet the vast sums that players are earning off the course by awarding many millions through the PIP, that had zero relation to their on course performance — and then, under pressure from LIV, they decided to increase those sums exponentially


If you want to argue about incentives and motivation, fine - I don’t doubt your points….but they cannot reasonably be used to justify the PGA Tour and against the LIV model when you take the above two facts into account

 

[Imurg]

So there's no difference between $120,000 and $4,000,000 then?

Of course there is...but when you already have more than you could possibly spend in a lifetime it doesn't mean as much....
$4m for 1st...let's say 1.5m for 2nd ( I don't know the numbers and im realnot that interested)..
Tringale is leading by 2 with 3 to play ROFLMAO...is there really a motivation for DJ or Bryson or Smith to push for the birdies?
Or sit back and collect the 2nd place cheque..? Thats a mighty big kitchen.....
You'll never see it from any side other than your own, and I probably won't see it from any side but mine either...but LIV is exhibition golf
Pure and simple..and I hope it dies on it's arse.