Custom Fitting- The Evidence Base (VERY long post)

[Curls]

That is an interesting and comical, in places, diatribe. Sounds like it is more appropriate for discussion with your therapist than your golf pro. You come across as someone wanting to burn down a church for a religion you object to. Did you have a bad experience with custom fitting at a formative point in your development?

Anyway, 'custom fitting' describes a spectrum of activity, from relatively straightforward fitting for a few key factors that even you might consider sensible, to highly detailed technical measurements of everything possible, which is clearly excessive for all but the best players, but very few average golfers do the latter. You seem to think custom fitting is a homogenous entity, like The Catholic Church, with everyone believing a set of shared truths, it really isn't. Nor is anybody forced to take part or listen to the advice offered.

By accepting that a 6'6" man shouldn't use a set of cutdown clubs, you accept the basic principle of custom fitting but you haven't told us how much farther you are willing to go. Where is the cut-off between what is obvious and reasonable and that which is fraudulent and the work of charlatans? And how do you know enough about the subject to know where that cut-off lies? Is it different for you and everybody else, or does everybody need to play by the same rules as you?

Someone has been binge watching Line Of Duty.

I’m only hopping ball and no disrespect meant at all @Backsticks , you definitely know your terminology but you’re applying it to something that really has benefited many golfers (unlike the quite ineffectual snake oil). I gained ~20 yards carry at my driver fitting. I was using a shaft too soft for me and generating 3,500+ rpm spin making my flight high, floaty and weak. There were any number of “better” shafts for me and we went though them until my spin was down to 2500. Could I have found that myself? The flight of several of those looked good, better than what I had. But without the data or fitter to interpret it I might have ended up by trial and error with something better - but not best. On the course I was instantly carrying traps I’d lay up before. That’s not luck or confidence and it’s not just my experience.

The OP has raised a great point, where’s the data? Wed like to be better able to define that but just dismissing the whole thing out of hand is ignoring the fact that in a good fitting your numbers can change dramatically and not by chance or magic.

 

[RichA]

Fitting helped me find the iron, shaft, length and lie that feels right. The one I thought that I wanted clearly didn't suit me, so an expensive ego led mistake was avoided.
Additionally, I would never have thought of trying midsize grips, which have had a significant impact on my control of the club.
I don't know that it will improve my scores, but I feel more comfortable in the clubs I've bought than I would have done without the fitting. I'm not so interested in the tiny data set a fitting provides, but you definitely get a feel for the set up you're testing.

 

[Ethan]

Someone has been binge watching Line Of Duty.

I’m only hopping ball and no disrespect meant at all @Backsticks , you definitely know your terminology but you’re applying it to something that really has benefited many golfers (unlike the quite ineffectual snake oil). I gained ~20 yards carry at my driver fitting. I was using a shaft too soft for me and generating 3,500+ rpm spin making my flight high, floaty and weak. There were any number of “better” shafts for me and we went though them until my spin was down to 2500. Could I have found that myself? The flight of several of those looked good, better than what I had. But without the data or fitter to interpret it I might have ended up by trial and error with something better - but not best. On the course I was instantly carrying traps I’d lay up before. That’s not luck or confidence and it’s not just my experience.

The OP has raised a great point, where’s the data? Wed like to be better able to define that but just dismissing the whole thing out of hand is ignoring the fact that in a good fitting your numbers can change dramatically and not by chance or magic.

I don't watch LOD, in fact. Keep meaning to start but not getting round to it.

The problem is that to answer the question to the extent demanded would require a large study, with different levels of custom fitting (the equivalent of a dose effect in a clinical trial) and proper blinding. That is not really feasible. If it it not adequately obvious that some equipment suits a given player better than others, and that finding a way to identify that is reasonable, then just go ahead and buy off the shelf and be happy with your sense of moral superiority over these other fools who get fitted.

 

[Curls]

I don't watch LOD, in fact. Keep meaning to start but not getting round to it.

The problem is that to answer the question to the extent demanded would require a large study, with different levels of custom fitting (the equivalent of a dose effect in a clinical trial) and proper blinding. That is not really feasible. If it it not adequately obvious that some equipment suits a given player better than others, and that finding a way to identify that is reasonable, then just go ahead and buy off the shelf and be happy with your sense of moral superiority over these other fools who get fitted.

I meant the other guy ?

It is an untestable hypotheses if success is measured by performance in terms of handicap etc because there are simply too many uncontrollable variables. For me success is measured in a decrease in dispersion or increase in length at the fitting over your own clubs. What you do with them after is your business. But if the data at the fitting shows improvement then the fitter has done their job and while some might have found the same improvement by trial and error, there are those among us who consider that advances in technology are significant enough to warrant attention. Even at a level that is not nearly as precise as the pros for whom the process was once reserved

 

[Blue in Munich]

Its far more than a lottery. Its a complete delusion. Its weakness is also its great strength though : it cannot justify that it offers anything, but that also leaves room for mumbo jumbo and snake oil salespatter, and golfers are suckers for anything that sells a dream. As long as there is no way to check the claim, the easier it is to maintain the delusion.

No the burden of proof lies with the claimant. In this case the clubfitter. Whose claims are maybe summed up as : there is an optimum club spec that will allow you play your best golf, I know what the best club spec for a given person is, and, I can analyse your swing to determine which club spec will take you closest to that optimum spec. (please modify if this isnt the core of their claim).

Burden of Proof : When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.[1] This is also stated in Hitchens's razor, which declares that "what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence."

So in this case, the club fitters claims may be dismissed without further ado unless the club fitter presents evidence which is then to the accuser to critique if they are unconvinced.

The doctor analogy is false - they do not make the claim that they WILL cure you. Club fitters do make the claims (or something along those lines) that I outline above, and that they will give you a club that fits (whatever that really means) you best. And leave very cloudy the consequence that even that, will enable you to play better.

So prove your claim that it's a delusion then.

If you can't prove your claim then does not Hitchen's razor apply equally to your claim?

 

[Blue in Munich]

I don't watch LOD, in fact. Keep meaning to start but not getting round to it.

The problem is that to answer the question to the extent demanded would require a large study, with different levels of custom fitting (the equivalent of a dose effect in a clinical trial) and proper blinding. That is not really feasible. If it it not adequately obvious that some equipment suits a given player better than others, and that finding a way to identify that is reasonable, then just go ahead and buy off the shelf and be happy with your sense of moral superiority over these other fools who get fitted.

What, like all those PGA Tour pros with more talent in their little finger , and who probably play with anything, than the rest of us possess in our entire body?

 

[Ethan]

I meant the other guy ?

It is an untestable hypotheses if success is measured by performance in terms of handicap etc because there are simply too many uncontrollable variables. For me success is measured in a decrease in dispersion or increase in length at the fitting over your own clubs. What you do with them after is your business. But if the data at the fitting shows improvement then the fitter has done their job and while some might have found the same improvement by trial and error, there are those among us who consider that advances in technology are significant enough to warrant attention. Even at a level that is not nearly as precise as the pros for whom the process was once reserved

I understand the idea of hypothesis testing in trials and the translation of experimental data into real world data.

But some things can be accepted based on basic principles. Is it better to have clubs that you can perform well with on a range with a Trackman? Sure. Does that translate into a lower handicap? Maybe.

Remember, there is no randomised controlled trial that shows that jumping out of a plane with a parachute is safer than jumping out without.

You stated quite baldly that custom fitting is a delusion, a fixed false belief. That is a statement of such certitude that simply saying there is no proof that custom fitting works is adequate justification. If you had said instead that beyond a fairly basic fitting for length, lie and shaft flex, additional custom fitting does not materially improve the game for most average golfers, you might get more agreement.

 

[Curls]

I understand the idea of hypothesis testing in trials and the translation of experimental data into real world data.

But some things can be accepted based on basic principles. Is it better to have clubs that you can perform well with on a range with a Trackman? Sure. Does that translate into a lower handicap? Maybe.

Remember, there is no randomised controlled trial that shows that jumping out of a plane with a parachute is safer than jumping out without.

You stated quite baldly that custom fitting is a delusion, a fixed false belief. That is a statement of such certitude that simply saying there is no proof that custom fitting works is adequate justification. If you had said instead that beyond a fairly basic fitting for length, lie and shaft flex, additional custom fitting does not materially improve the game for most average golfers, you might get more agreement.

Think you’re missing a quote in the middle there chap, I’m on your side ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I am soon (June) going to find out whether or not custom fitting can work for me...and I have always been a cynic - give me any clubs and I’ll change my swing to make them work for me - has been my mantra.

However, My ball strike issues are so significant that I’m thinking that if new clubs and custom fitting can have real benefit beyond more confidence engendered with having the new bats, then I’ll discover it pretty quickly.

Why? Well my pro has identified what he says are significant characteristics of my existing 15+yr old off-the-shelf clubs that are almost incompatible with my stance and swing. And when I reflect back it is very possible that the major strike issues that I have developed over the years may have their inception back to when I got these clubs. But as I got them very soon after a long layoff when I only played a small handful of rounds a year for 8 years I think I put my issues down to that layoff - but it may have been to a significant extent down to the clubs.

We shall see.

I note that my pro (he knows my issues and game well) reckons that with new and properly fitted clubs he can get me from 8.7 to Cat 1 in a year or two (he doesn’t say ‘or two’ but I hae ma doots that this year is possible - even now that I have time to practice as much as I wish)

 

[Crow]

However, My ball strike issues are so significant that I’m thinking that if new clubs and custom fitting can have real benefit beyond more confidence engendered with having the new bats, then I’ll discover it pretty quickly.

Why? Well my pro has identified what he says are significant characteristics of my existing 15+yr old off-the-shelf clubs that are almost incompatible with my stance and swing. And when I reflect back it is very possible that the major strike issues that I have developed over the years may have their inception back to when I got these clubs. But as I got them very soon after a long layoff when I only played a small handful of rounds a year for 8 years I think I put my issues down to that layoff - but it may have been to a significant extent down to the clubs.

I'd be very interested to know what those characteristics are?

 

[LegendOle]

Just back from my first ever custom fitting session. Really enjoyable experience with a good pro who wasn't, in any way, overtly "Salesy".

My aim had been to go in to pick up a set of irons that wouldn't be as punishing as my current set on the bad shots. Whilst I hit loads of balls (more tiring than I was expecting) there was still plenty of lesson type info and explanations offered that made it far more beneficial than I would have thought. I had gone in expecting to come out with a new shiny set of G425s or Radspeed irons in regular shaft and lie as per my current irons but have come away with a decision to make over Sim2s or Mavriks in stiff with a 1 degree flat lie angle. Was really interesting to see the difference that the stiff shaft made in terms of dispersion across all clubs I tried.

As to the issue of custom fitting being worth it or not... not sure I could say one way or the other in the long term but it was an enjoyable way to spend a couple of hours and, with that in mind, I was happy to pay for the experience.

I fully expect to take, at least, 5 shots of my handicap this season now...?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Its far more than a lottery. Its a complete delusion. Its weakness is also its great strength though : it cannot justify that it offers anything, but that also leaves room for mumbo jumbo and snake oil salespatter, and golfers are suckers for anything that sells a dream. As long as there is no way to check the claim, the easier it is to maintain the delusion.

Well...I’m not so sure that can be said in a general way...

The advice I am getting from my club‘s head pro on new clubs and club fitting was given by him fully aware that he’d like to take my daughter ‘down the aisle’ and so if he has me spending getting on for £2k in a fruitless search for improvement then I am not going to be that enamoured if I conclude he’s suckered me or sold me a pup...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'd be very interested to know what those characteristics are?

Basically, the clubs (John Letters Limited Edition F-7s) are 15+yr old design and tech, they are way too upright and shafts a too long for my stance. He could have fitted new and shorter shafts, and could have had a go changing the lie of the irons - they are miles toe-up for me.

But as I was willing to (for the first time ever) treat myself to a new consistent set of clubs that is the route we have gone. Plus my driver (snapped shaft), fairway wood and hybrid are all different models with different shafts and flexes - as are my wedges. All a bit of a guddle.

 

[apj0524]

I know this is an old post but a recent Titleist Fitting in the studio at my club which got me thinking.
Currently Play AP3 with AMT Red Shafts happy with them - I hit good shots not long (7i 145~150 ish) and I can duff them like everyone else, went to the fitting because I'm thinking of retiring soon so my last bit spend, I fancy the T100S irons and as I getting older I wondered if a graphite shaft would be the way to go?

Firstly hit my current 7i low an behold 145 ~ 150 but the spin on his Trackman was 7800 (did I believe this not sure I see it in the real world but it was only a Base Line) peak height 85 yards descent and 49 degree
These are the results:
T100S with AMT Red low an behold 145 ~ 150 but the spin on his Trackman was the same range (the T100s is 1 degree weaker) ball speed the same spin the same ball park peak similar height 88 yards descent and 49 degree they felt nice and could not see any difference in the size to the AP3 even when putting the head side by side
T100S with Mitsubishi Tensei AV Red AM2 149 ~ 155 yrds but the spin on his Trackman again was the same range ball speed 3 mile an hour increase dispersion not as good more likely to be the Indian.
T200 with AMT Red and Mitsubishi Tensei AV Red AM2 same carry same spin did not like the feel compared to the AP3s and the T100s (which I know is a forged face)

So do I drop £1200 for a set of irons that look nice, will pander to my vanity that I'm using T100s and have graphite shafts that is the question.

Second hand set of AP3s Pulled set of Mitsubishi Tensei AV Red AM2 or Steelfibre i95 and save myself min £500

But they wont be all shinny though

 

[Bdill93]

I know this is an old post but a recent Titleist Fitting in the studio at my club which got me thinking.
Currently Play AP3 with AMT Red Shafts happy with them - I hit good shots not long (7i 145~150 ish) and I can duff them like everyone else, went to the fitting because I'm thinking of retiring soon so my last bit spend, I fancy the T100S irons and as I getting older I wondered if a graphite shaft would be the way to go?

Firstly hit my current 7i low an behold 145 ~ 150 but the spin on his Trackman was 7800 (did I believe this not sure I see it in the real world but it was only a Base Line) peak height 85 yards descent and 49 degree
These are the results:
T100S with AMT Red low an behold 145 ~ 150 but the spin on his Trackman was the same range (the T100s is 1 degree weaker) ball speed the same spin the same ball park peak similar height 88 yards descent and 49 degree they felt nice and could not see any difference in the size to the AP3 even when putting the head side by side
T100S with Mitsubishi Tensei AV Red AM2 149 ~ 155 yrds but the spin on his Trackman again was the same range ball speed 3 mile an hour increase dispersion not as good more likely to be the Indian.
T200 with AMT Red and Mitsubishi Tensei AV Red AM2 same carry same spin did not like the feel compared to the AP3s and the T100s (which I know is a forged face)

So do I drop £1200 for a set of irons that look nice, will pander to my vanity that I'm using T100s and have graphite shafts that is the question.

Second hand set of AP3s Pulled set of Mitsubishi Tensei AV Red AM2 or Steelfibre i95 and save myself min £500

But they wont be all shinny though

You already know the answer - shiney is the way to go if you feel any hesitation towards buying used.

Im the type that if I brought used, I'd still look at new clubs - buy new and you've "scratched the itch" so to speak.

 

[Curls]

Do you have it to spend?! If you do why not, if money is a consideration then you e a sensible option and worst case scenario you could always sell them on at what might be a small loss.

 

[DanFST]

Interesting.

I was getting annoyed for my stock Black p790's to arrive, so organised a custom fit for today.

Ironically they arrived this morning, I'm going to leave them in the packaging and then hit some stock p790's vs whatever best comes up in the fit. Lets see how much better I could be with fitting!

 

[Curls]

Interesting.

I was getting annoyed for my stock Black p790's to arrive, so organised a custom fit for today.

Ironically they arrived this morning, I'm going to leave them in the packaging and then hit some stock p790's vs whatever best comes up in the fit. Lets see how much better I could be with fitting!

You lunatic. You’ll get us all killed.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Well...got custom fitted for Ping G425 Driver, 4H and 5W - and after 3 rounds currently really struggling to get to grips with them.

But tbh I am not surprised - disappointed I haven't got going with them yet - but not surprised. My previous equivalent three clubs were all different makes and had quite different shafts from each other and from the new clubs. My driver had a stiff shaft - when that broke late last year I used a 20yr old Callaway Steelhead Big Bertha with a regular steel shaft, and I guess (but don't know) that my 3H and 4W were regular. Certainly it is the case that the clubheads look very different to what I was used to...and the shafts (all regular) feel very different - especially the driver which feels weird...

 

[RichA]

Well...got custom fitted for Ping G425 Driver, 4H and 5W - and after 3 rounds currently really struggling to get to grips with them.

But tbh I am not surprised - disappointed I haven't got going with them yet - but not surprised. My previous equivalent three clubs were all different makes and had quite different shafts from each other and from the new clubs. My driver had a stiff shaft - when that broke late last year I used a 20yr old Callaway Steelhead Big Bertha with a regular steel shaft, and I guess (but don't know) that my 3H and 4W were regular. Certainly it is the case that the clubheads look very different to what I was used to...and the shafts (all regular) feel very different - especially the driver which feels weird...

I'm struggling with my G425 irons. My old Eye 2s have stiff shafts and didn't fit me. I got so used to a flat lie, short shafts and having to really hit the ball.
If I just remember to hit the new ones with minimal effort and concentrate on keeping my posture, they're amazing. A gentle brush with the 5 iron and it goes straight 180 yards; go after it and it hooks left into the rough 100 yards away. I guess any major change is going to have a settling in period.