Custom Fitting- The Evidence Base (VERY long post)

[Imurg]

I always seem to swing differently in a fitting scenario than I do on the course.
I don't know why, maybe I try too hard or it doesn't compute that I'm hitting into a screen rather than the open air or what
Sometimes I'm better in the fitting, sometimes better on the course.
Knowing you're supposed to carry your 7 iron X yards but end up carrying it Y or Z doesn't fill you with lot of confidence
I don't like the whole fitting thing, probably why I tend to DIY...

 

[Bdill93]

To me this is the most basic point of custom fitting benefit. I'm 6'5" so longer and more upright clubs made a big difference to me too.

The biggest problem though, is that most fittings are for one range of clubs. Surely, we need to test all options but there are few places that have every companies clubs as it would be a massive outlay. It would also make the fitting so long we would be broken physically.

A fitting success though, is always going to be subject to the golfers ability to swing as they normally do. I went to one at a range once that was so cold, any lack of feel could have been down to the temperature or my inability to find the centre of the club.

Ive often thought this. The places that offer more than that tend to be either American Golf or a custom fitting centre that charges you for the fitting. I dont really rate the service at my local(ish) American Golf, so the only option is to try what my club stocked! Wilson and Ping!

 

[howbow88]

I'm off 9 at the moment, and know I am better than that. I am also fairly consistent, but...

I have recently tried out the following drivers:

SIM, SIM2, RadSpeed XB, G425 Max, G425 LST, Epic Speed, TSi2, TSi3.

I didn't get on with SIM, SIM2, Epic Speed, or the Titleists.

The 3 that felt best were RadSpeed XB, G425 Max, G425 LST. I saw 3 different guys across 2 weeks, 2 of whom were PGA pros, the other not so much (take a guess where he works ).

PGA guy 1: Recommended a G425 Max - my swing speed is not quick enough for the LST according to him. Interestingly, the ball was going almost identically to my Titleist 917D2 in distance, but the dispersion was tighter. He recommended a stiff shaft like my current one, but something lighter than my 65g.

Am guy: I went in thinking that I would most likely walk away with a G425 Max... Nope. Hit it absolutely terribly. No idea why. I did hit the Radspeed XB great though, so I was suddenly interested in that.

PGA guy 2: He recommended a G425 LST with a 70g stiff shaft - I would benefit from a reduction in spin. I have to say that I felt most comfortable with this club, and hit it lovely, but my concern is that when I have an off day, I will perhaps need something more forgiving like the Max. But out of the 2, on this day I most definitely hit the LST model better. He didn't stock Cobra unfortunately, so I wasn't able to compare.

The point I'm getting at is 3 different guys suggested 3 different things. And in fairness to them, there's a fair chance I probably swung it quite differently each time!

I just think unless you have an incredibly consistent swing, like a scratch golfer or better, I am not sure custom fitting is the miracle cure. I would say that it does probably make a lot of sense to try and match up shaft flexes and weights to some extent though, across your bag.

 

[Curls]

I think this issue is common @howbow88 you already have a decent modern driver that is in a good spec for you. The gains you’ll get by changing shaft weight by 5 grams are marginal and certainly within error considering the inconsistency in your strike. So I agree it’s a tough one. What exactly were you looking for over and above what the 917 gives you? If it’s a miracle cure for a swing flaw I’m afraid the answer is self evident! But if it’s and extra 10 yards or more forgiving off centre hits, you might find that, because the 917D2 is not a particularly forgiving head. Just accept that the trade off in forgiveness might be a few yards in length on your really good ones. And imo you might be better off spending some of that 400 quid on a lesson with a good pro. There’s a time and a place for Custom fitting, maybe that money will be better spent after tuning up your swing a little, it doesn’t have to be a rebuild if the pro is good, you’ve got to 9 so you can play ??

 

[Ethan]

I'm off 9 at the moment, and know I am better than that. I am also fairly consistent, but...

I have recently tried out the following drivers:

SIM, SIM2, RadSpeed XB, G425 Max, G425 LST, Epic Speed, TSi2, TSi3.

I didn't get on with SIM, SIM2, Epic Speed, or the Titleists.

The 3 that felt best were RadSpeed XB, G425 Max, G425 LST. I saw 3 different guys across 2 weeks, 2 of whom were PGA pros, the other not so much (take a guess where he works ).

PGA guy 1: Recommended a G425 Max - my swing speed is not quick enough for the LST according to him. Interestingly, the ball was going almost identically to my Titleist 917D2 in distance, but the dispersion was tighter. He recommended a stiff shaft like my current one, but something lighter than my 65g.

Am guy: I went in thinking that I would most likely walk away with a G425 Max... Nope. Hit it absolutely terribly. No idea why. I did hit the Radspeed XB great though, so I was suddenly interested in that.

PGA guy 2: He recommended a G425 LST with a 70g stiff shaft - I would benefit from a reduction in spin. I have to say that I felt most comfortable with this club, and hit it lovely, but my concern is that when I have an off day, I will perhaps need something more forgiving like the Max. But out of the 2, on this day I most definitely hit the LST model better. He didn't stock Cobra unfortunately, so I wasn't able to compare.

The point I'm getting at is 3 different guys suggested 3 different things. And in fairness to them, there's a fair chance I probably swung it quite differently each time!

I just think unless you have an incredibly consistent swing, like a scratch golfer or better, I am not sure custom fitting is the miracle cure. I would say that it does probably make a lot of sense to try and match up shaft flexes and weights to some extent though, across your bag.

PGA guys 1 and 2 were not necessarily that different. Perhaps one tried to reduce spin using a bit of shaft weight, the other using a lighter low spin shaft? The difference about your bad day depends a bit on what you tell them you want to achieve - distance and hang the consistency, or the other way round?

Both may have been good options with slightly different approaches to the same problem. There is not necessarily just the one magic fit waiting out there like a soul mate for you to meet them.

 

[rksquire]

From recent lessons with a pro and a broad look session with a fitter, both have commented I'd benefit from a stiff shaft in the driver and clubs that were a bit longer. From the rest of the conversation with both however, continued lessons would likely see more improvement so I accept fitting wouldn't necessarily see any major improvement - it may assist in my quest to get better through practice and lessons but it won't automatically bring results

 

[howbow88]

I think this issue is common @howbow88 you already have a decent modern driver that is in a good spec for you. The gains you’ll get by changing shaft weight by 5 grams are marginal and certainly within error considering the inconsistency in your strike. So I agree it’s a tough one. What exactly were you looking for over and above what the 917 gives you? If it’s a miracle cure for a swing flaw I’m afraid the answer is self evident! But if it’s and extra 10 yards or more forgiving off centre hits, you might find that, because the 917D2 is not a particularly forgiving head. Just accept that the trade off in forgiveness might be a few yards in length on your really good ones. And imo you might be better off spending some of that 400 quid on a lesson with a good pro. There’s a time and a place for Custom fitting, maybe that money will be better spent after tuning up your swing a little, it doesn’t have to be a rebuild if the pro is good, you’ve got to 9 so you can play ??

10 yards and more forgiving would be enough for me. My issue is how do I decide between my 3 preferred choices when 3 different guys, suggest 3 different clubs, probably based on 3 slightly varying swings?!

PGA guys 1 and 2 were not necessarily that different. Perhaps one tried to reduce spin using a bit of shaft weight, the other using a lighter low spin shaft? The difference about your bad day depends a bit on what you tell them you want to achieve - distance and hang the consistency, or the other way round?

Both may have been good options with slightly different approaches to the same problem. There is not necessarily just the one magic fit waiting out there like a soul mate for you to meet them.

Fair point.

The point I'm really getting at is that custom fitting can be a little bit of a lottery, and as such, I think it's importance is a little bit overstated. All that said, I think it does help in making a decision. I thought I would like the SIM2, but although it goes a long way, it also goes all over the place. I also didn't like the Epic, and thought that the Titleists felt horrible.

 

[BridgfordBlue]

I'm off 9 at the moment, and know I am better than that. I am also fairly consistent, but...

I have recently tried out the following drivers:

SIM, SIM2, RadSpeed XB, G425 Max, G425 LST, Epic Speed, TSi2, TSi3.

I didn't get on with SIM, SIM2, Epic Speed, or the Titleists.

The 3 that felt best were RadSpeed XB, G425 Max, G425 LST. I saw 3 different guys across 2 weeks, 2 of whom were PGA pros, the other not so much (take a guess where he works ).

PGA guy 1: Recommended a G425 Max - my swing speed is not quick enough for the LST according to him. Interestingly, the ball was going almost identically to my Titleist 917D2 in distance, but the dispersion was tighter. He recommended a stiff shaft like my current one, but something lighter than my 65g.

Am guy: I went in thinking that I would most likely walk away with a G425 Max... Nope. Hit it absolutely terribly. No idea why. I did hit the Radspeed XB great though, so I was suddenly interested in that.

PGA guy 2: He recommended a G425 LST with a 70g stiff shaft - I would benefit from a reduction in spin. I have to say that I felt most comfortable with this club, and hit it lovely, but my concern is that when I have an off day, I will perhaps need something more forgiving like the Max. But out of the 2, on this day I most definitely hit the LST model better. He didn't stock Cobra unfortunately, so I wasn't able to compare.

The point I'm getting at is 3 different guys suggested 3 different things. And in fairness to them, there's a fair chance I probably swung it quite differently each time!

I just think unless you have an incredibly consistent swing, like a scratch golfer or better, I am not sure custom fitting is the miracle cure. I would say that it does probably make a lot of sense to try and match up shaft flexes and weights to some extent though, across your bag.

I think it’s more about just making sure you’ve got the right length club length and lie angle. The clubs themselves are a much of a muchness really and it’s more down to just which one do you like the look and sound of more.

 

[evemccc]

10 yards and more forgiving would be enough for me. My issue is how do I decide between my 3 preferred choices when 3 different guys, suggest 3 different clubs, probably based on 3 slightly varying swings?!


Fair point.

The point I'm really getting at is that custom fitting can be a little bit of a lottery, and as such, I think it's importance is a little bit overstated. All that said, I think it does help in making a decision. I thought I would like the SIM2, but although it goes a long way, it also goes all over the place. I also didn't like the Epic, and thought that the Titleists felt horrible.

Interesting. It is a lot of different drivers to try — I’m curious as I’m hoping to get fitted this year also, for the first time.
Was it three separate fittings, all paid, or how did you go about trying so many in a short space of time?

 

[Backsticks]

The point I'm really getting at is that custom fitting can be a little bit of a lottery,

Its far more than a lottery. Its a complete delusion. Its weakness is also its great strength though : it cannot justify that it offers anything, but that also leaves room for mumbo jumbo and snake oil salespatter, and golfers are suckers for anything that sells a dream. As long as there is no way to check the claim, the easier it is to maintain the delusion.

 

[Ethan]

Its far more than a lottery. Its a complete delusion. Its weakness is also its great strength though : it cannot justify that it offers anything, but that also leaves room for mumbo jumbo and snake oil salespatter, and golfers are suckers for anything that sells a dream. As long as there is no way to check the claim, the easier it is to maintain the delusion.

Can you justify that assertion? Are you saying there are no factors (shaft flex, shaft weight, lie, length, grip size etc) that make one club a better fit for a given player than another, or that there is no way to tell which one is the right choice?

 

[howbow88]

Its far more than a lottery. Its a complete delusion. Its weakness is also its great strength though : it cannot justify that it offers anything, but that also leaves room for mumbo jumbo and snake oil salespatter, and golfers are suckers for anything that sells a dream. As long as there is no way to check the claim, the easier it is to maintain the delusion.

This is a very cynical way to look at it. I get your point though.

 

[howbow88]

Interesting. It is a lot of different drivers to try — I’m curious as I’m hoping to get fitted this year also, for the first time.
Was it three separate fittings, all paid, or how did you go about trying so many in a short space of time?

The 2 from the pros I managed to get for free through friends of friends. The other one was also free, but I don't really think it can be described as a 'fitting' and more a high street sales pitch...

I'm actually booked into a couple of upcoming demo days of the two brands who are favourites at the moment - Ping and Cobra. I'll see how they go and either stick with what I have, or buy something new.

 

[Backsticks]

Can you justify that assertion?

I would put it another way - the burden of proof lies with clubfitting, and it has never justified itself. Which in itself is a justification for my assertion.

Are you saying there are no factors (shaft flex, shaft weight, lie, length, grip size etc) that make one club a better fit for a given player than another

Attempts to justify it generally rely on rather imprecise questions, reductio ad absurdum, or loose false analogies are rather the stock language of club fitting. Which in itself raises doubts about whether it really has any basis in reality. It also is assuming the existance of a 'better fit for a given player', as read, but with no foundation justifying what that fit is and why, or what better is or does.

or that there is no way to tell which one is the right choice?

More or less. Of course, one cannot play with a shovel, a plastic toy club, or a 6'6" man likely play to his best with a set of cutdow 1950s ladies clubs. But it doesnt necessarily follow by extension of that principal, that refining clubs specification to the level that club fitting (borderline fraudulently I would say) purports to, delivers any discernable difference to the way a person will play the game.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Can you justify that assertion? Are you saying there are no factors (shaft flex, shaft weight, lie, length, grip size etc) that make one club a better fit for a given player than another, or that there is no way to tell which one is the right choice?

I would put it another way - the burden of proof lies with clubfitting, and it has never justified itself. Which in itself is a justification for my assertion.


Attempts to justify it generally rely on rather imprecise questions, reductio ad absurdum, or loose false analogies are rather the stock language of club fitting. Which in itself raises doubts about whether it really has any basis in reality. It also is assuming the existance of a 'better fit for a given player', as read, but with no foundation justifying what that fit is and why, or what better is or does.

More or less. Of course, one cannot play with a shovel, a plastic toy club, or a 6'6" man likely play to his best with a set of cutdow 1950s ladies clubs. But it doesnt necessarily follow by extension of that principal, that refining clubs specification to the level that club fitting (borderline fraudulently I would say) purports to, delivers any discernable difference to the way a person will play the game.

So club fitting is guilty of your unsubstantiated charge until it proves itself innocent? interesting.

 

[Backsticks]

.......
TL; DR- There is a lack of evidence pointing towards the efficacy of custom fitting in how it impacts scores. Evidence suggests that golfers enjoy the process of custom fitting and report benefits in scoring. However, there is a need for more rigid examination of this process in order to justify claims in respect of the positive benefits of custom fitting.

A good, considered view. I think the lack of evidence at this stage, raises significant doubts that there is any benefit to club fitting in how it impacts scores. Certainly, much of the language around it is very suspicious and unscienetific despite a barrage of numbers - more than a hint of dazzle by 'science'. I feel their is also an element of preaching to the already believer. People want such a helpful service to exist. Pat analogies like 'you wouldnt just pick a random pair of shoes of the shelf and expect them to fit' have a certain credibility with many who dont really think critically about what they are being told. But as you say, its ist that people dont in general enjoy the process, its part of the fun and banter of golf, and maybe even gain some psychological boost of confidence and that they have left no stone unturned in their effort to play the best golf that they can. But in the end, club fitting is probably a close relation to astrology in many respects.

 

[Backsticks]

So club fitting is guilty of your unsubstantiated charge until it proves itself innocent? interesting.

Yes. It has made the claim in the first place. And not justified it. As I say, the burden of proof lies with club fitting. The old snake oil salesman existed with a line of : believe what I say, hand over your money, and then you can see that I am right.

If the fitting industry had ever offered a 'if we recommend a different spec club than the one you are playing when you come in, then if you change and dont drop your scores, we will give you your money back' guarantee, it would long be defunct.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Yes. It has made the claim in the first place. And not justified it. As I say, the burden of proof lies with club fitting. The old snake oil salesman existed with a line of : believe what I say, hand over your money, and then you can see that I am right.

If the fitting industry had ever offered a 'if we recommend a different spec club than the one you are playing when you come in, then if you change and dont drop your scores, we will give you your money back' guarantee, it would long be defunct.

The burden of proof lies with the accuser.

Club fitting is much like going to the doctors; they can do so much but they can't guarantee results, and they also rely on the patient being scrupulously honest with them. Doctors don't give money back guarantees and they aren't defunct.

 

[Backsticks]

The burden of proof lies with the accuser.

Club fitting is much like going to the doctors; they can do so much but they can't guarantee results, and they also rely on the patient being scrupulously honest with them. Doctors don't give money back guarantees and they aren't defunct.

No the burden of proof lies with the claimant. In this case the clubfitter. Whose claims are maybe summed up as : there is an optimum club spec that will allow you play your best golf, I know what the best club spec for a given person is, and, I can analyse your swing to determine which club spec will take you closest to that optimum spec. (please modify if this isnt the core of their claim).

Burden of Proof : When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.[1] This is also stated in Hitchens's razor, which declares that "what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence."

So in this case, the club fitters claims may be dismissed without further ado unless the club fitter presents evidence which is then to the accuser to critique if they are unconvinced.

The doctor analogy is false - they do not make the claim that they WILL cure you. Club fitters do make the claims (or something along those lines) that I outline above, and that they will give you a club that fits (whatever that really means) you best. And leave very cloudy the consequence that even that, will enable you to play better.

 

[Ethan]

I would put it another way - the burden of proof lies with clubfitting, and it has never justified itself. Which in itself is a justification for my assertion.


Attempts to justify it generally rely on rather imprecise questions, reductio ad absurdum, or loose false analogies are rather the stock language of club fitting. Which in itself raises doubts about whether it really has any basis in reality. It also is assuming the existance of a 'better fit for a given player', as read, but with no foundation justifying what that fit is and why, or what better is or does.

More or less. Of course, one cannot play with a shovel, a plastic toy club, or a 6'6" man likely play to his best with a set of cutdow 1950s ladies clubs. But it doesnt necessarily follow by extension of that principal, that refining clubs specification to the level that club fitting (borderline fraudulently I would say) purports to, delivers any discernable difference to the way a person will play the game.

That is an interesting and comical, in places, diatribe. Sounds like it is more appropriate for discussion with your therapist than your golf pro. You come across as someone wanting to burn down a church for a religion you object to. Did you have a bad experience with custom fitting at a formative point in your development?

Anyway, 'custom fitting' describes a spectrum of activity, from relatively straightforward fitting for a few key factors that even you might consider sensible, to highly detailed technical measurements of everything possible, which is clearly excessive for all but the best players, but very few average golfers do the latter. You seem to think custom fitting is a homogenous entity, like The Catholic Church, with everyone believing a set of shared truths, it really isn't. Nor is anybody forced to take part or listen to the advice offered.

By accepting that a 6'6" man shouldn't use a set of cutdown clubs, you accept the basic principle of custom fitting but you haven't told us how much farther you are willing to go. Where is the cut-off between what is obvious and reasonable and that which is fraudulent and the work of charlatans? And how do you know enough about the subject to know where that cut-off lies? Is it different for you and everybody else, or does everybody need to play by the same rules as you?