Found embedded ball by treading on it - any penalties??

[rulefan]

Really? but treading a ball further into the soft ground accidently, warrants a penalty?
Because it`s an accident and you didn`t do it deliberately, whereas moving a flagstick to let your ball fall into the hole is.

Moving a movable obstruction and accidentally causing the ball to move is not a penalty.
In both cases you are moving one thing and incidentally moving the ball.

Of course if you accidentally move the flagstick in the wrong direction the ball may not finish in the hole. Is that fair?

 

[delc]

As I explained in my original posting, my ball was lost in an area of only short semi-rough, and in an area where you would normally expect to find it quite easily. Unfortunately it landed in a particularly soft spot and embedded itself in its own pitch mark (it was a well struck shot with plenty of backspin on it). Again unfortunately, all my playing group searched for it, but I was the one to find it by stepping on it. As there was a local Winter rule allowing me to lift, clean and drop an embedded ball through the green, I didn't have to recreate the original lie, which is why I asked the original question. It seems a bit unfair to be penalised for accidentally treading on a ball that was not even visible! The only good bit was that I didn't lose my ball!

 

[user2010]

???

Who`s trolling?
I`m just trying to understand why an accidental act warrants an unfair penalty(imo) and you STILL have to replace the ball, yet a deliberate act of moving an object(flagstick) saves you a shot.

I play by the Rules but they can sometimes seem very unfair and contradictory.

 

[user2010]

Moving a movable obstruction and accidentally causing the ball to move is not a penalty.
In both cases you are moving one thing and incidentally moving the ball.

Of course if you accidentally move the flagstick in the wrong direction the ball may not finish in the hole. Is that fair?

Yes because if you did that you would be classed as a clumsy idiot and deserved it.

 

[chrisd]

As I explained in my original posting, my ball was lost in an area of only short semi-rough, and in an area where you would normally expect to find it quite easily. Unfortunately it landed in a particularly soft spot and embedded itself in its own pitch mark (it was a well struck shot with plenty of backspin on it). Again unfortunately, all my playing group searched for it, but I was the one to find it by stepping on it. As there was a local Winter rule allowing me to lift, clean and drop an embedded ball through the green, I didn't have to recreate the original lie, which is why I asked the original question. It seems a bit unfair to be penalised for accidentally treading on a ball that was not even visible! The only good bit was that I didn't lose my ball!

If the ball wasn't visible, so you never saw it before you stood on it - how do you know it was embedded?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

As I explained in my original posting, my ball was lost in an area of only short semi-rough, and in an area where you would normally expect to find it quite easily. Unfortunately it landed in a particularly soft spot and embedded itself in its own pitch mark (it was a well struck shot with plenty of backspin on it). Again unfortunately, all my playing group searched for it, but I was the one to find it by stepping on it. As there was a local Winter rule allowing me to lift, clean and drop an embedded ball through the green, I didn't have to recreate the original lie, which is why I asked the original question. It seems a bit unfair to be penalised for accidentally treading on a ball that was not even visible! The only good bit was that I didn't lose my ball!

Do you know it was embedded until you stood on it ?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes because if you did that you would be classed as a clumsy idiot and deserved it.

What happened if i accidently kicked the ball into a better place ? Penalised ?

 

[delc]

Do you know it was embedded until you stood on it ?

Because it would have been easy to see if it hadn't embedded itself almost completely into the ground!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Because it would have been easy to see if it hadn't embedded itself almost completely into the ground!

You dont know because you didnt see it - so you have no idea if it was embedded or not.

 

[Imurg]

Why am I getting the feeling that we've been here before...

 

[delc]

What happened if i accidently kicked the ball into a better place ? Penalised ?

Foot wedge?

 

[duncan mackie]

Who`s trolling?
I`m just trying to understand why an accidental act warrants an unfair penalty(imo) and you STILL have to replace the ball, yet a deliberate act of moving an object(flagstick) saves you a shot.

I play by the Rules but they can sometimes seem very unfair and contradictory.

The whole concept of fair within the rules relates to the ability for all players to play to the same rules for any situation they find themselves in - this is equity. Sometimes, in order to enable this concept, it may not seem that a player is being treated 'fairly' but he will be being treated exactly the same as any other player in the same situation.

It's also worth noting that around 95% (or more!) of the rules only exist to facilitate this wider concept of fairness! Many (not me) argue we should go right back to the principle that you hit it, find it, hit it again until holed- regardless of all and anything that gets in the way.

 

[rulefan]

It seems a bit unfair to be penalised for accidentally treading on a ball that was not even visible!

Is it fair if you accidentally trod on a ball that was visible although you didn't see it?

Is it fair if you accidentally kicked a ball that was not visible?

Is it fair if you accidentally kicked on a ball that was visible although you didn't see it ?

 

[delc]

Is it fair if you accidentally trod on a ball that was visible although you didn't see it?

Is it fair if you accidentally kicked a ball that was not visible?

Is it fair if you accidentally kicked on a ball that was visible although you didn't see it ?

As I have said repeatly. The ball was hit into an area of short semi-rough, not more than an inch long, just off the green. We all saw exactly where it went, but when we walked up to that area, it was nowhere to be seen. It was 3 or 4 minutes before I found it, and that was only because I felt something under my foot. It was clearly already embedded in its own pitch mark, in an area softened by recent heavy rainfall. However I couldn't raise any water with my foot, so it was not in casual water or any other Abnormal Ground Condition.

 

[Colin L]

As I have said repeatly. The ball was hit into an area of short semi-rough, not more than an inch long, just off the green. We all saw exactly where it went, but when we walked up to that area, it was nowhere to be seen. It was 3 or 4 minutes before I found it, and that was only because I felt something under my foot. It was clearly already embedded in its own pitch mark, in an area softened by recent heavy rainfall. However I couldn't raise any water with my foot, so it was not in casual water or any other Abnormal Ground Condition.

Yes, you have indeed said all that repeatedly. And you have repeatedly had the same answer. And you have repeatedly ignored those answers.

Here we go again. You stood on your ball; you breached rule 18-2; you are penalised 1 stroke. None of the other detail you bang on about makes any difference.

 

[rulefan]

As I have said repeatly. The ball was hit into an area of short semi-rough, not more than an inch long, just off the green. We all saw exactly where it went, but when we walked up to that area, it was nowhere to be seen. It was 3 or 4 minutes before I found it, and that was only because I felt something under my foot. It was clearly already embedded in its own pitch mark, in an area softened by recent heavy rainfall. However I couldn't raise any water with my foot, so it was not in casual water or any other Abnormal Ground Condition.

You haven't actually answered any of the questions. But the fundamental question is when is something fair and something similar unfair? Where do you draw the line?

 

[rulie]

You haven't actually answered any of the questions. But the fundamental question is when is something fair and something similar unfair? Where do you draw the line?

rulefan, this has become a mug's game. We know what the Rules say, and they determine what is fair in golf.
Opinions may vary, but the Rules are the Rules to be played by and make it a fair game.

 

[delc]

But doesn't Rule 25-2 apply in this case? The local winter rule extends relief from an embedded lie without penalty from closely mown areas to anywhere through the green. Also is soft mud an AGC?

 

[rulie]

But doesn't Rule 25-2 apply in this case? The local winter rule extends relief from an embedded lie without penalty from closely mown areas to anywhere through the green. Also is soft mud an AGC?

Regardless of what other Rules may have potentially applied to your ball in play, you caused it to move, in breach of Rule 18-2a, and with a one stroke penalty. This has been told to you six ways to Sunday. Accept the one stroke penalty, move on, being smarter for the next time.
Decision 25/1 clearly explains that soft, mushy earth is not an abnormal ground condition unless water is present.
This discussion is complete! :blah:

 

[Deleted member 15344]

But doesn't Rule 25-2 apply in this case? The local winter rule extends relief from an embedded lie without penalty from closely mown areas to anywhere through the green. Also is soft mud an AGC?

Delc you have had the answers to the constant questions



You caused your ball to move - penalty - it is as simple as that