Ball found after another played in foursomes matchplay.

[curious golfer]

My teammate hit our second shot over the line of the penalty area in gloomy conditions. I didn't see it bounce and we thought it was gone. He walked into the penalty area about a hundred yards ahead of me and had a look for it. If it had been on top of some seaweed it might have been playable. I dropped by the entry point and hit our fourth. Walking up just short of the green we found the first ball which must have had a very lucky bounce.

Were we ok to play the second ball as our fifth as to the best of our knowledge the original ball was lost in penalty area or should we have been penalised for playing a wrong ball or from the wrong place?

We lost the hole and the match convincingly so it didn't really matter, I just wonder what the correct procedure should've been.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Say, "Provisional".

 

[rulie]

A provisional ball must be played from the spot of the previous stroke, which did not happen in the original post.

 

[IslaG]

What colour was the penalty area? If it was a Red PA You were fine as long as you were 95%+ certain (ie known or virtually certain ) the original ball was in the penalty area. If so you proceeded correctly under
17.1c Relief for Ball Not Found but in Penalty Area This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).
If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:

• The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d or 17.2. ( so dropping taking lateral relief was OK)
• Once the player puts another ball in playto take relief in this way:
  • The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.

If it was a yellow PA then the lateral relief you took isn't an option so you were not correct - only stroke and distance or back on the line

Once you play the second ball the original ball is no longer in play regardless of where / when you find it

 

[wjemather]

My teammate hit our second shot over the line of the penalty area in gloomy conditions. I didn't see it bounce and we thought it was gone. He walked into the penalty area about a hundred yards ahead of me and had a look for it. If it had been on top of some seaweed it might have been playable. I dropped by the entry point and hit our fourth. Walking up just short of the green we found the first ball which must have had a very lucky bounce.

Were we ok to play the second ball as our fifth as to the best of our knowledge the original ball was lost in penalty area or should we have been penalised for playing a wrong ball or from the wrong place?

We lost the hole and the match convincingly so it didn't really matter, I just wonder what the correct procedure should've been.

You can only take back-on-the-line or lateral (if a red penalty area) relief from a penalty area when it is known or virtually certain that is where your ball is. It doesn't sound like that was the case as the ball could easily have been elsewhere (and was), so your drop was incorrect and you played from the wrong place. Your only option was stroke and distance relief, and to play from the spot of the previous stroke.

Say, "Provisional".

If it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the penalty area, playing a provisional is not permitted; if played, a ball intended to be provisional becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

[jim8flog]

You can only take back-on-the-line or lateral (if a red penalty area) relief from a penalty area when it is known or virtually certain that is where your ball is. It doesn't sound like that was the case as the ball could easily have been elsewhere (and was), so your drop was incorrect and you played from the wrong place. Your only option was stroke and distance relief, and to play from the spot of the previous stroke.


If it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the penalty area, playing a provisional is not permitted; if played, a ball intended to be provisional becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.

If you read the OP my understanding is that they checked in the penalty area (having seen the ball go over the margin) the ball only having been found after passing the penalty area and approaching the green.

In my opinion it would fit with 'virtually certain'

It does beg the question to abide by the rule just how far forward do you have to search? The OP gives us no idea of the distance beyond the penalty area to where the ball was found.

 

[curious golfer]

If you read the OP my understanding is that they checked in the penalty area (having seen the ball go over the margin) the ball only having been found after passing the penalty area and approaching the green.

In my opinion it would fit with 'virtually certain'

It does beg the question to abide by the rule just how far forward do you have to search? The OP gives us no idea of the distance beyond the penalty area to where the ball was found.

Red stakes. Didn't hit a provisional because we had seen nothing bounce back off the rocks and assumed if it had gone anywhere, it had only gone further into the penalty area. Not one of the four of us saw a ball come back in which you usually do see in better visibility, but it was a bit gloomy yesterday. When we found our original ball, I suspected we may have played from wrong place or played a wrong ball and was prepared to concede the hole, but our opponents were quite sure we could continue playing our second ball as our fourth. I hadn't gone searching for it, because I thought it was hopeless and just waited back at point of entry, when my teammate couldn't see anything on the only area of the penalty area where it would've been playable I dropped and played on. The ball was probably only about fifty yards further on than we had thought it would have been. A wee bit frustrating, but we had our luck in a previous round when an opponent didn't mark their ball on a green and I smashed one out of the greenside rough into it and stayed on the green instead of going 50 yards past. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[Alan Clifford]

You can only take back-on-the-line or lateral (if a red penalty area) relief from a penalty area when it is known or virtually certain that is where your ball is. It doesn't sound like that was the case as the ball could easily have been elsewhere (and was), so your drop was incorrect and you played from the wrong place. Your only option was stroke and distance relief, and to play from the spot of the previous stroke.


If it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the penalty area, playing a provisional is not permitted; if played, a ball intended to be provisional becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.

So both not virtual certain and virtual certain at the same time. Is the Schrödinger's virtually uncertain?

 

[wjemather]

If you read the OP my understanding is that they checked in the penalty area (having seen the ball go over the margin) the ball only having been found after passing the penalty area and approaching the green.

In my opinion it would fit with 'virtually certain'

It does beg the question to abide by the rule just how far forward do you have to search? The OP gives us no idea of the distance beyond the penalty area to where the ball was found.

I disagree. Seems like there was a reasonable chance the ball was not in the PA, but it was just assumed to be there (no-one had seen it go in) and no search was done elsewhere. These actions do not meet the definition of how 'known or virtually certain' can be arrived at, which requires "all reasonably available information".

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you read the OP my understanding is that they checked in the penalty area (having seen the ball go over the margin) the ball only having been found after passing the penalty area and approaching the green.

In my opinion it would fit with 'virtually certain'

It does beg the question to abide by the rule just how far forward do you have to search? The OP gives us no idea of the distance beyond the penalty area to where the ball was found.

On BIB I would not feel any compulsion or need to look forward any distance whatsoever when searching for a ball. Indeed I can choose to not bother looking for my ball at all at any time during the round regardless of where it might be. Of course I still have to check any ball that I can see or that any playing partner, companion, opponent or other 3rd party might point out to me.

 

[Colin L]

....When we found our original ball, I suspected we may have played from wrong place or played a wrong ball and was prepared to concede the hole, but our opponents were quite sure we could continue playing our second ball as our fourth. ..........

In terms of the match, provided you didn't actually concede the hole and then change that at the behest of your opponent, it doesn't matter whether you were right or wrong in what you did. If player and opponent innocently agree to a ruling the result of the hole stands even if the ruling was wrong.

 

[rulefan]

My teammate hit our second shot over the line of the penalty area in gloomy conditions. I didn't see it bounce and we thought it was gone. He walked into the penalty area about a hundred yards ahead of me and had a look for it. If it had been on top of some seaweed it might have been playable. I dropped by the entry point and hit our fourth. Walking up just short of the green we found the first ball which must have had a very lucky bounce.

Were we ok to play the second ball as our fifth as to the best of our knowledge the original ball was lost in penalty area or should we have been penalised for playing a wrong ball or from the wrong place?

We lost the hole and the match convincingly so it didn't really matter, I just wonder what the correct procedure should've been.

If you were certain or virtually certain that the ball was in the PA then you were perfectly ok to play from where you did (assuming it was a red PA). You had no further obligation to search anywhere. And you were correct in not playing the original ball again.
If your opponents believed you were wrong in your conclusion, they could have made a claim (before starting the next hole) and asked for a ruling from the committee.