Matchplay 4 ball playoff hole - new day

[daztheblue]

During last seasons four ball knockout we squared the match on 18 thus requiring playoff holes. We all agreed that should this be the case we’d come back another day to finish the match due to the fading light.
Returning a week or so later, one of our opponents declared he’d already played the course that day in his singles knockout. We lost the match on the 3rd extra playoff hole.
The rules state you can play the course before a matchplay match, but doesn’t specify if you can play the course before playing sudden death holes from an unfinished match.
Is this within the rule? It felt at the time against the spirit of the game as the player clearly had an advantage due to the fact he only needed to win one hole to win the match for his team (having already played the holes he knew where the pins were and greens speed). If starting a new match, it could only be won at the earliest, the 10th which is what I presume the play before rule is for as it gives all players the opportunity to warm up, get used to conditions etc.
Cheers

 

[rulie]

Imo, your match was suspended by mutual agreement (Rule 5.7a), and Rule 5.5c says, "If a match is stopped by agreement of the players and will not be resumed on the same day, the players may practise on the course without restriction before the match is resumed."
There is no issue with what you have described.

 

[daztheblue]

Ah, that’s good to know, didn’t see that clause. Thanks Pro! Puts our mind at ease

 

[daztheblue]

Although I must admit, it doesn’t really seem in the spirit of the game if, for example, some players are working all day and the other could spend all day practicing the course for 1 playoff hole. Would this be ok in the Ryder cup?
Match suspended so everyone turns up at 11am the following morning to play the 19th… only to find Patrick Reid has been up since 7am and played the front 5 six times

 

[rulefan]

Although I must admit, it doesn’t really seem in the spirit of the game if, for example, some players are working all day and the other could spend all day practicing the course for 1 playoff hole. Would this be ok in the Ryder cup?
Match suspended so everyone turns up at 11am the following morning to play the 19th… only to find Patrick Reid has been up since 7am and played the front 5 six times

5.2a. Match Play​

A player may practise on the course before a round or between rounds of a match-play competition.

The rule is pretty clear. All players have the same opportunity.

 

[salfordlad]

Although I must admit, it doesn’t really seem in the spirit of the game if, for example, some players are working all day and the other could spend all day practicing the course for 1 playoff hole. Would this be ok in the Ryder cup?
Match suspended so everyone turns up at 11am the following morning to play the 19th… only to find Patrick Reid has been up since 7am and played the front 5 six times

Similar to one player having a very good caddie doing the work, providing high quality advice or knowledge of the greens.

Committees have the authority to set the conditions they want for their event, eg nobody practices and the course, players cannot putt and chip between holes, no caddies etc.

 

[daztheblue]

between rounds
… is during a round between rounds?

 

[daztheblue]

Similar to one player having a very good caddie doing the work, providing high quality advice or knowledge of the greens.

Committees have the authority to set the conditions they want for their event, eg nobody practices and the course, players cannot putt and chip between holes, no caddies etc.

Sorry, I don’t think this is the same situation

 

[daztheblue]

I’m not sure I’ve been clear on my point of difference here. I agree that everyone can play between suspension of a game and resumption of a game, like if the game was Wednesday and the resumption was Friday, we could all play on Thursday not in the match and it would have no impact on the match. Is it fair though for someone to play Friday on a fresh course, before all other players, when the first hole played could win the match?

 

[rulie]

I’m not sure I’ve been clear on my point of difference here. I agree that everyone can play between suspension of a game and resumption of a game, like if the game was Wednesday and the resumption was Friday, we could all play on Thursday not in the match and it would have no impact on the match. Is it fair though for someone to play Friday on a fresh course, before all other players, when the first hole played could win the match?

The Rules say that it is fair. All players in the match have the same opportunity.

 

[salfordlad]

I’m not sure I’ve been clear on my point of difference here. I agree that everyone can play between suspension of a game and resumption of a game, like if the game was Wednesday and the resumption was Friday, we could all play on Thursday not in the match and it would have no impact on the match. Is it fair though for someone to play Friday on a fresh course, before all other players, when the first hole played could win the match?

And I'm not sure you have understood what I am advising. The "regular" Rules provide the default template - which the Ruling Bodies think is the most constructive, general starting point for match play and stroke play (different in each case). It is not a pronouncement on what will be "fair", or what should apply for a specific event. And they have empowered the Committee to decide and post whatever practice limitations the Cttee considers is fair. I can't stress this enough - the Cttee can fix their preferred approach generically for all competitions they control or individually for any specific event they are administering.
So you can make your arguments to your Committee as to how you think it should apply to your event - the Rules themselves enable the Cttee to deliver their version of "fair".

 

[rulefan]

I’m not sure I’ve been clear on my point of difference here. I agree that everyone can play between suspension of a game and resumption of a game, like if the game was Wednesday and the resumption was Friday, we could all play on Thursday not in the match and it would have no impact on the match. Is it fair though for someone to play Friday on a fresh course, before all other players, when the first hole played could win the match?

It may be worth reading the Local Rule (below)
The preamble to which contains:
There are many different considerations about whether to allow practice on the course, such as fairness to the players, possible interference with set-up of the course and maintenance activities, the amount of time before or between rounds, or when players are encouraged to play on the course outside the competition.
For these or other reasons, a Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule that modifies these default provisions by either allowing or prohibiting such practice entirely or by limiting when, where or how such practice may take place.

www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8

 

[Imurg]

Although I must admit, it doesn’t really seem in the spirit of the game if, for example, some players are working all day and the other could spend all day practicing the course for 1 playoff hole. Would this be ok in the Ryder cup?
Match suspended so everyone turns up at 11am the following morning to play the 19th… only to find Patrick Reid has been up since 7am and played the front 5 six times

There's the flaw...Read in the RC..

 

[Neilds]

The OP should realise that sometimes the rules help you and sometimes they shaft you - bit like life really

 

[daztheblue]

Cheers for the feedback guys, we’re not upset about it and took the result with good grace. I thought it’d make an interesting talking point . Play well today if you’re on the course

 

[daztheblue]

It may be worth reading the Local Rule (below)
The preamble to which contains:
There are many different considerations about whether to allow practice on the course, such as fairness to the players, possible interference with set-up of the course and maintenance activities, the amount of time before or between rounds, or when players are encouraged to play on the course outside the competition.
For these or other reasons, a Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule that modifies these default provisions by either allowing or prohibiting such practice entirely or by limiting when, where or how such practice may take place.

www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8

Great stuff thanks

 

[Swango1980]

Although I must admit, it doesn’t really seem in the spirit of the game if, for example, some players are working all day and the other could spend all day practicing the course for 1 playoff hole. Would this be ok in the Ryder cup?
Match suspended so everyone turns up at 11am the following morning to play the 19th… only to find Patrick Reid has been up since 7am and played the front 5 six times

You could apply the same logic for any match, not just a play-off. Two players arrange to play a match at 5.30pm, as Player B finished work at 5pm. Player A does not work that day. Therefore, Player A turns up at the golf course at 8am. Plays 18 holes. Spends at least 20 minutes on each green, putting to the hole from many different positions so they can see what the break is like. Hit different clubs off the tee to find out what tee shot is most likely to leave him the best approach shot.

The above is still OK, the rules allow it and the rules apply to both players. Perhaps it is just unfortunate that one player cannot benefit from the rules in this case, due to commitments outside golf. But that is life, particularly in amateur golf.

 

[daztheblue]

You could apply the same logic for any match, not just a play-off. Two players arrange to play a match at 5.30pm, as Player B finished work at 5pm. Player A does not work that day. Therefore, Player A turns up at the golf course at 8am. Plays 18 holes. Spends at least 20 minutes on each green, putting to the hole from many different positions so they can see what the break is like. Hit different clubs off the tee to find out what tee shot is most likely to leave him the best approach shot.

The above is still OK, the rules allow it and the rules apply to both players. Perhaps it is just unfortunate that one player cannot benefit from the rules in this case, due to commitments outside golf. But that is life, particularly in amateur golf.

I think my hang up about this is the fact we’re still playing the same match that was suspended. It’s not like we’re starting a new match where one player has been practicing on that setup, on that day. Like you say though, such is life. Nobody said it was fair

 

[tadabq]

I think my hang up about this is the fact we’re still playing the same match that was suspended. It’s not like we’re starting a new match where one player has been practicing on that setup, on that day. Like you say though, such is life. Nobody said it was fair

See response from Rulie on Jan 11: "your match was suspended by mutual agreement (Rule 5.7a), and Rule 5.5c says, "If a match is stopped by agreement of the players and will not be resumed on the same day, the players may practise on the course without restriction before the match is resumed."
The Rules cover this situation. It may not be what you think the Rules should be; but it's covered.
Furthermore I don't think the Rule (5.5c) is unfair. The rule is the same for both teams. All players have the same opportunity. I think practice on the course is prohibited in stroke play because usually there is a large field and no capacity for the course to accommodate the whole field practicing. A few players might be able to play but not all.
That's not "equuitable".Stroke play involves 2 or 4 players typically. If there is a large team match play competition, like Ryder Cup, the
Committee often prohibits practicing on the course the day of play.