Found embedded ball by treading on it - any penalties??

[Spuddy]

There are some inconsistencies with regards moving your ball.......Yes?

E.G. Delcs OP shows that he must be penalised one shot for accidently treading on his ball, whilst looking for it through the green, causing it to move.....downwards, he has gained nothing from doing this, but must add 1 shot to his score.......Fair?

Now, what about when you chip from the fringe and the ball wedges between the flag and the rim of the hole with the majority of the ball still above the hole..........ball holed?......No, but you can DELIBERATELY move the flag in such a way that you cause the ball to move downwards into the hole, when taking the flag out, thus ending play on the hole......have you gained from deliberately moving the flag? ABSOLUTELY! Do you add a penalty for deliberately causing the ball to move? NO!

Fair and equitable? I don`t think so, do you? Discuss.

having a ball at rest against a flagstick fall into the hole when you remove the flag is allowed under 17-4. Standing on your own ball and moving it isn't... There's not much to discuss.

 

[user2010]

So why shouldn`t the ball at rest in the OP be allowed under 17-4? He caused it to move downwards gaining nothing. Why should it be different because the ball is at rest against a flagstick? You are still causing a ball at rest to move?

 

[Spuddy]

So why shouldn`t the ball at rest in the OP be allowed under 17-4? He caused it to move downwards gaining nothing. Why should it be different because the ball is at rest against a flagstick? You are still causing a ball at rest to move?

Because 17-4 is specifically relating to the scenario of a ball resting against a flagstick. 18-2 deals with moving your own ball.. It starts by saying "except as permitted by the rules". That means that there are circumstances where you can move your own ball (e.g. Rule 17-4, 12-2, 24-1).

 

[chrisd]

So why shouldn`t the ball at rest in the OP be allowed under 17-4? He caused it to move downwards gaining nothing. Why should it be different because the ball is at rest against a flagstick? You are still causing a ball at rest to move?

I suppose the real answer is - because they are the rules and we have to play to them - its very easy to pick instances where the rules seem unnecessarily harsh but they evolve over many years to be what they are

 

[rulefan]

E.G. Delcs OP shows that he must be penalised one shot for accidently treading on his ball, whilst looking for it through the green, causing it to move.....downwards, he has gained nothing from doing this, but must add 1 shot to his score.......Fair?

How far is he able to move it accidentally before he is penalised? 1mm, 10mm, 100mm, 1000mm? Does it matter if it went nearer the hole or not. Who decides if he gained anything?

 

[rulie]

So why shouldn`t the ball at rest in the OP be allowed under 17-4? He caused it to move downwards gaining nothing. Why should it be different because the ball is at rest against a flagstick? You are still causing a ball at rest to move?

Incorrect. He gained a stroke penalty. :whoo:

 

[user2010]

How far is he able to move it accidentally before he is penalised? 1mm, 10mm, 100mm, 1000mm? Does it matter if it went nearer the hole or not. Who decides if he gained anything?

I`m talking about moving his ball downwards further into the ground, where obviously he won`t be gaining anything but will still have a penalty shot given against him and for what? pushing his ball further into the ground? Madness!

 

[user2010]

Incorrect. He gained a stroke penalty. :whoo:

Brilliant

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I`m talking about moving his ball downwards further into the ground, where obviously he won`t be gaining anything but will still have a penalty shot given against him and for what? pushing his ball further into the ground? Madness!

Umm how do you know it "only" went down and not forward as such ?

 

[user2010]

Umm how do you know it "only" went down and not forward as such ?

Ummm, because he said so?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Ummm, because he said so?

But then he doesn't know exactly how far his ball moved and which way

 

[user2010]

But then he doesn't know exactly how far his ball moved and which way

If you tread on something that is embedded in soft ground, which way can it go but down?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

If you tread on something that is embedded in soft ground, which way can it go but down?

Forward and down ? Back and down - either way the ball moves and there was no way of knowing if the ball didn't move forward or back even a mm - it's a penalty

 

[Fyldewhite]

It's perfectly fair. We all know that if you move your ball (even accidentally) it is a penalty. Good reason to be careful and nothing to do with gaining an advantage....or not as the case may be. In fact the requirement to replace it is really to eliminate any advantage/disadvantage from the situation.

 

[user2010]

So why should you be penalised a shot when you have to put the ball back anyway?


The Rules allow you to deliberately move an object(flagstick) to allow a ball at rest to move downwards, yet if you accidently push a ball further into the ground, you`re penalised a shot AND must replace the ball.

As I said earlier...... Madness.

 

[doublebogey7]

So why shouldn`t the ball at rest in the OP be allowed under 17-4? He caused it to move downwards gaining nothing. Why should it be different because the ball is at rest against a flagstick? You are still causing a ball at rest to move?

As others have explained rule 17-4 is an exception to the principle laid down in Rule 18-2, that if you cause your ball to move when not making a stroke there is a one shot penalty. As for the reason for the exception I would say that is pretty plain to see.

 

[Fyldewhite]

So why should you be penalised a shot when you have to put the ball back anyway?

The Rules allow you to deliberately move an object(flagstick) to allow a ball at rest to move downwards, yet if you accidently push a ball further into the ground, you`re penalised a shot AND must replace the ball.

As I said earlier...... Madness.

Moving the flagstick in the circumstances is to prevent players being unfairly penalised when the ball would clearly be falling in the hole were it not for the flag. It usually falls in anyway due to the wind and not to allow this would certainly be unfair. To be pedantic, the rule allows you to move the flag, gravity moves the ball.

The question of ball moved by player should be looked at the other way around. ie why should you not be penalised when you move your ball accidentally? One of the very basics of golf, from the very beginning, is to play the ball as it lies. The rules that allow you to do otherwise have crept in over time and as yet "accidentally moving the ball" hasn't been a big enough an issue to warrant inclusion.......mad though that is apparently.

 

[rosecott]

I predict the formation of the Scrotie McBoogerballs/DelC unholy alliance.

 

[rulie]

???

 

[user2010]

Moving the flagstick in the circumstances is to prevent players being unfairly penalised when the ball would clearly be falling in the hole were it not for the flag. It usually falls in anyway due to the wind and not to allow this would certainly be unfair. To be pedantic, the rule allows you to move the flag, gravity moves the ball.

The question of ball moved by player should be looked at the other way around. ie why should you not be penalised when you move your ball accidentally? One of the very basics of golf, from the very beginning, is to play the ball as it lies. The rules that allow you to do otherwise have crept in over time and as yet "accidentally moving the ball" hasn't been a big enough an issue to warrant inclusion.......mad though that is apparently.

Really? but treading a ball further into the soft ground accidently, warrants a penalty?
Because it`s an accident and you didn`t do it deliberately, whereas moving a flagstick to let your ball fall into the hole is.