Found embedded ball by treading on it - any penalties??

[rulefan]

Forget GUR, it was not in the OP.

An embedded ball is in play. So it doesn't matter if the OP ball is embedded or not. If it is moved by the player, other than as permitted by a rule, a penalty must ensue.

 

[bobmac]

This thread simply confirms that going off at a tangent is not a good idea. Confusion reigns.

And of course you rule experts never do that on other rule questions.
My question was a genuine one.
If the player is entitled to a free drop from an embedded ball and from GUR, was there a penalty for both situations for standing on the ball given that both are unusual ground conditions.
Another genuine question .........
If a player tries to wave a fly away from his ball and carelessly moves the ball, there is no penalty but when someone accidentally stands on his ball (which he is going to lift anyway) and pushes the ball further into its plug, there is a penalty. Do the experts think it's fair to be penalised for making a plugged ball even more plugged? If you are going to lift and clean, does it matter if its plugged half way or all the way in?

 

[rulefan]

Another genuine question .........
If a player tries to wave a fly away from his ball and carelessly moves the ball, there is no penalty

And a genuine answer .... That is only true if the ball lies on the putting green.

But why not start a new thread?
If anyone later looks for an answer to this point, they would not be able to find it in the contents list.

 

[Fyldewhite]

And of course you rule experts never do that on other rule questions.
My question was a genuine one.
If the player is entitled to a free drop from an embedded ball and from GUR, was there a penalty for both situations for standing on the ball given that both are unusual ground conditions.
Another genuine question .........
If a player tries to wave a fly away from his ball and carelessly moves the ball, there is no penalty but when someone accidentally stands on his ball (which he is going to lift anyway) and pushes the ball further into its plug, there is a penalty. Do the experts think it's fair to be penalised for making a plugged ball even more plugged? If you are going to lift and clean, does it matter if its plugged half way or all the way in?

I think the principle is that if you accidentally move a ball while "doing something allowed by the rules" eg lifting, then the appropriate rule will explain what to do. In all other circumstances it isn't OK. The exceptions to Rule 18 are quite specific. Doing otherwise may open a can of worms.......say your ball was in a bad lie, you accidentally stand on it but say you were going to declare it unplayable and lift it anyway but so no penalty for moving it......same principle in that it was intended to lift the ball but it wasn't moved "in the process of doing so" which is the key point. I think the rules are fair enough in this area tbh.

 

[bobmac]

And a genuine answer .... That is only true if the ball lies on the putting green.

Funilly enough, I knew that.
Never mind

 

[Colin L]

I don’t mind subsidiary or tangential questions but I managed to illustrate, by changing the context, how they can be confusing.

The fact that the player may opt to take relief from an abnormal condition does not put the ball out of play nor is it included in the list of exceptions to a penalty for moving it [ Rule 18-2 ]. There’s no escape from a penalty for standing on your ball in GUR or on an embedded ball unless you were searching for it or any of the other exceptions applied.

If you wave a fly away from your ball and move the ball, there is a penalty unless your ball was lying on the green. The fly is a loose impediment and Rule 23-1 applies. See also Decision 23-1/5

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-23,d23-1-5

 

[rulefan]

And of course you rule experts never do that on other rule questions.
My question was a genuine one.
If the player is entitled to a free drop from an embedded ball and from GUR, was there a penalty for both situations for standing on the ball given that both are unusual ground conditions.
Another genuine question .........
If a player tries to wave a fly away from his ball and carelessly moves the ball, there is no penalty but when someone accidentally stands on his ball (which he is going to lift anyway) and pushes the ball further into its plug, there is a penalty. Do the experts think it's fair to be penalised for making a plugged ball even more plugged? If you are going to lift and clean, does it matter if its plugged half way or all the way in?

I don't claim to be a rule expert.
But to respond to the plugged ball situation ...

1) An embedded ball (partially) may well be playable.
2) Relief from GUR is not necessarily compulsory but the OP wasn't in GUR.
3) In the OP it is doubtful that it was known (either before or after standing on it) that the ball was embedded.
4) It was certainly not known before he stepped on it, that the player intended to lift etc.
5) The rule is clear (not only to experts) that the ball must not be moved by the player unless a rule specifically allows it. In this case there isn't.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don’t mind subsidiary or tangential questions but I managed to illustrate, by changing the context, how they can be confusing.

The fact that the player may opt to take relief from an abnormal condition does not put the ball out of play nor is it included in the list of exceptions to a penalty for moving it [ Rule 18-2 ]. There’s no escape from a penalty for standing on your ball in GUR or on an embedded ball unless you were searching for it or any of the other exceptions applied.

If you wave a fly away from your ball and move the ball, there is a penalty unless your ball was lying on the green. The fly is a loose impediment and Rule 23-1 applies. See also Decision 23-1/5

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-23,d23-1-5

But if you are not allowed to play your ball from the area of abnormal ground conditions how can it be in play, that's the bit I don't get. I walk up to GUR and state to my PP that "I am going to look for my ball in the area of GUR but I will not be playing it as I know it is GUR from which play is prohibited" In looking for my ball I stand on it - and I am penalised?

 

[rulefan]

But if you are not allowed to play your ball from the area of abnormal ground conditions how can it be in play, that's the bit I don't get.

Because the definition says it is. If you played it you would be in breach of a rule relating to a ball in play not one relating to a ball not in play

I walk up to GUR and state to my PP that "I am going to look for my ball in the area of GUR but I will not be playing it as I know it is GUR from which play is prohibited" In looking for my ball I stand on it - and I am penalised?

No, as it would be clear that you intended to find and lift it in order to continue under the rules. See the details under 18-2a.

Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball to move in the following circumstances:

In searching for a ball ... in an abnormal ground condition - Rule 12-1

In lifting a ball under a Rule - Rule 20-1

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Because the definition says it is. If you played it you would be in breach of a rule relating to a ball in play not one relating to a ball not in play


No, as it would be clear that you intended to find and lift it in order to continue under the rules. See the details under 18-2a.

Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball to move in the following circumstances:

In searching for a ball ... in an abnormal ground condition - Rule 12-1

In lifting a ball under a Rule - Rule 20-1

OK - got it - so if accidentally stand on my ball whilst looking for it in GUR - no penalty.

 

[rulefan]

OK - got it - so if accidentally stand on my ball whilst looking for it in GUR - no penalty.

But if you decide to play it from the GUR you must replace it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But if you decide to play it from the GUR you must replace it.

Though in a 'play prohibited' area of GUR I couldn't

 

[Smiffy]

If it's any consolation Delc, if I had been playing with you I wouldn't have called penalty.

 

[delc]

If it's any consolation Delc, if I had been playing with you I wouldn't have called penalty.

Why thank you Smiffy!

What I was trying to find out was if our temporary local Winter rule allowing us to lift clean and drop a ball embedded in its own pitch mark (which it clearly was) through the green takes precedence over rule 18? I fully accept that treading on your own ball during a search does incur a penalty for causing your ball to move under normal conditions. Unfortunately people went off on a tangent about Abnormal Ground Conditions and Ground Under Repair, neither of which applied to this case, so I am still non the wiser!

 

[rulefan]

Why thank you Smiffy!

What I was trying to find out was if our temporary local Winter rule allowing us to lift clean and drop a ball embedded in its own pitch mark (which it clearly was) through the green takes precedence over rule 18? I fully accept that treading on your own ball during a search does incur a penalty for causing your ball to move under normal conditions. Unfortunately people went off on a tangent about Abnormal Ground Conditions and Ground Under Repair, neither of which applied to this case, so I am still non the wiser!

18-2 will take precedence. As the ball was in play when you moved it, the penalty and requirement to replace it kicks in before you can take any optional action.
The rule does not distinguish between pressing the ball further into the ground, knocking it out of the depression, knocking into GUR or a hazard ........... All have to be resolved first. You moved it from where it had come to rest. Verboten - EOS.

Take a similar situation. PLs in operation. Your ball is on the 'fairway' under a leaf. You accidentally kick it 2 yards away (a) into the rough, (b) elsewhere on the fairway. Where do you place your ball under the PL rule?
6" from the ball? But the ball isn't where it was. How do you get it back? First proceed under 18-2 of course.

 

[Foxholer]

Why thank you Smiffy!

What I was trying to find out was if our temporary local Winter rule allowing us to lift clean and drop a ball embedded in its own pitch mark (which it clearly was) through the green takes precedence over rule 18? I fully accept that treading on your own ball during a search does incur a penalty for causing your ball to move under normal conditions. Unfortunately people went off on a tangent about Abnormal Ground Conditions and Ground Under Repair, neither of which applied to this case, so I am still non the wiser!

So you chose to ignore posts 2, 3, 5, 6 (1 and 4 being your own posts)!

16 and 17 should have also resolved your question in 15!

You should have been absolutely no doubt at all that it's a penalty if you cause it to move in that situation!

 

[Colin L]

Why thank you Smiffy!

What I was trying to find out was if our temporary local Winter rule allowing us to lift clean and drop a ball embedded in its own pitch mark (which it clearly was) through the green takes precedence over rule 18? I fully accept that treading on your own ball during a search does incur a penalty for causing your ball to move under normal conditions. Unfortunately people went off on a tangent about Abnormal Ground Conditions and Ground Under Repair, neither of which applied to this case, so I am still non the wiser!

This is unbelievable. You claim to be none the wiser about the answer to your original question, an answer that was made clear to you as early as post #2 and then reiterated one way or another in posts 3, 5, 6, 11, 16, 17, 22, 36, 41 and 47. And don’t blame the GUR diversion - you’d been given the answer 5 times before that came in.

I think I’ve asked before in the same state of irritation: do you ever actually read the replies given to your questions?

And since you still haven’t got it, here it is for about the 12th time. As my University tutor would have said, “Read, mark and inwardly digest."

Your supposedly embedded ball was in play; you accidentally moved it; that’s a 1 stroke penalty for a breach of Rule 18-2.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Why thank you Smiffy!

What I was trying to find out was if our temporary local Winter rule allowing us to lift clean and drop a ball embedded in its own pitch mark (which it clearly was) through the green takes precedence over rule 18? I fully accept that treading on your own ball during a search does incur a penalty for causing your ball to move under normal conditions. Unfortunately people went off on a tangent about Abnormal Ground Conditions and Ground Under Repair, neither of which applied to this case, so I am still non the wiser!

You have been given the answer but because it's not to your liking and results in your being penalised you have ignored the answer

You caused the ball to move - you must penalise yourself the one shot

 

[user2010]

There are some inconsistencies with regards moving your ball.......Yes?

E.G. Delcs OP shows that he must be penalised one shot for accidently treading on his ball, whilst looking for it through the green, causing it to move.....downwards, he has gained nothing from doing this, but must add 1 shot to his score.......Fair?

Now, what about when you chip from the fringe and the ball wedges between the flag and the rim of the hole with the majority of the ball still above the hole..........ball holed?......No, but you can DELIBERATELY move the flag in such a way that you cause the ball to move downwards into the hole, when taking the flag out, thus ending play on the hole......have you gained from deliberately moving the flag? ABSOLUTELY! Do you add a penalty for deliberately causing the ball to move? NO!

Fair and equitable? I don`t think so, do you? Discuss.

 

[rulie]

There are some inconsistencies with regards moving your ball.......Yes?

E.G. Delcs OP shows that he must be penalised one shot for accidently treading on his ball, whilst looking for it through the green, causing it to move.....downwards, he has gained nothing from doing this, but must add 1 shot to his score.......Fair?

Now, what about when you chip from the fringe and the ball wedges between the flag and the rim of the hole with the majority of the ball still above the hole..........ball holed?......No, but you can DELIBERATELY move the flag in such a way that you cause the ball to move downwards into the hole, when taking the flag out, thus ending play on the hole......have you gained from deliberately moving the flag? ABSOLUTELY! Do you add a penalty for deliberately causing the ball to move? NO!

Fair and equitable? I don`t think so, do you? Discuss.

The Rules determine what is fair.

You can start a new thread on that topic if you wish.