CR and Slope - are some courses harder than others? And other course difficulty discussion

[Neilds]

Might be being a bit flippant here but if players no longer ‘get shots’, what do they take off players in the monthly medal to see who wins?

 

[rulefan]

No, not universal - Unified

Of course. CONGU 'unified' England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland & the LGU.

Someone at my club had been joking that as the British Isles are the foundations of golf it should have been universal and it stuck in my mind. Doh!

 

[Voyager EMH]

Might be being a bit flippant here but if players no longer ‘get shots’, what do they take off players in the monthly medal to see who wins?

Players do "get shots" when playing with and against each other. That is the purpose of handicaps.

When playing against the course we play off scratch and record a gross score, albeit with a nett double bogey limit per hole. Our handicap is then derived from the best 8 of the last 20 of these (adjusted) gross scores.

In this previous post - (https://forums.golfmonthly.com/thre...rse-difficulty-discussion.115215/post-2651451) - I describe playing against two differing courses and I do so with no mention of "getting shots".

 

[jim8flog]

What did the U stand for in the previous handicap system - UHS?

Unified

as it amalgamated the the different systems used in the UK (with some exceptions)

 

[rulefan]

Unified

as it amalgamated the the different systems used in the UK (with some exceptions)

Out of interest, what were the exceptions?

 

[D-S]

Unified

as it amalgamated the the different systems used in the UK (with some exceptions)

What was it called before it was unified? I assume the unification was just the CONGU countries that became unified.

 

[rulefan]

What was it called before it was unified? I assume the unification was just the CONGU countries that became unified.

1) It wasn't
2) Originally yes but shortly the LGU (which already incorporated the 4 nations's Ladies) joined up. Subsequently o few other countries affiliated.

 

[jim8flog]

Out of interest, what were the exceptions?

Seriously

I would suggest reading the manual.

 

[jim8flog]

What was it called before it was unified? I assume the unification was just the CONGU countries that became unified.

I never became involved with handicapping until the 'new' manual came out ( around 10 years ago) so I do not know.

 

[cliveb]

Going back to the issue of whether to use CR or CR-Par to calculate course handicap...

Does this affect how adjusted gross scores are awarded?
Let's take an extreme example of a course with CR 6 less than par.
Let's assume we have a player with an index such that his course handicap is 10 using the CR method, and 4 using the CR-Par method.
Now suppose he NR's the holes with stroke indexes 5 to 10.
Under the CR method, I know he will be given a gross triple bogey (=net double) on those holes.
Using the CR-Par method, does he get given a gross double bogey, since he has no shot on those holes?
And if that is what happens, then his adjusted gross differential will be 6 lower under CR-Par method.

I'm not saying this does happen (because I don't know), just asking the experts here whether this is what would happen.

 

[rulefan]

Seriously

I would suggest reading the manual.

I did but could find no exceptions to the membership. ie The 4 men's unions and the LGU and ultimately the ladies' associations that hadn't merged with the men's unions. What exceptions would there be?

 

[rosecott]

What was it called before it was unified? I assume the unification was just the CONGU countries that became unified.

In 1998 the Ladies Golf Union introduced a new handicapping system which was closely related to the CONGU system. In 2001 it was agreed to work together towards a unified system which came in in 2004.

 

[jim8flog]

I did but could find no exceptions to the membership. ie The 4 men's unions and the LGU and ultimately the ladies' associations that hadn't merged with the men's unions. What exceptions would there be?

without going through the whole manual

Directions and Delegations
There are a number of clauses in the CONGU® Unified Handicapping System that each Union has to interpret and provide direction for Area Authorities and member clubs, including delegation of authority where appropriate. The clause numbers of such discretions, directions and delegations are shaded for ease of identification e.g. 9.3
The directions for each of the GB&I countries are shown following each clause. Overseas Affiliates should make their own directions for these clauses, where appropriate.

 

[rulefan]

without going through the whole manual

Directions and Delegations
There are a number of clauses in the CONGU® Unified Handicapping System that each Union has to interpret and provide direction for Area Authorities and member clubs, including delegation of authority where appropriate. The clause numbers of such discretions, directions and delegations are shaded for ease of identification e.g. 9.3
The directions for each of the GB&I countries are shown following each clause. Overseas Affiliates should make their own directions for these clauses, where appropriate.

Ok, I see what you mean. Local variations of the rules. I took it that you were talking about some countries being exceptions to affiliation.

 

[sunshine]

Ok, I see what you mean. Local variations of the rules. I took it that you were talking about some countries being exceptions to affiliation.

Thread destruction complete

 

[rulefan]

Thread destruction complete

If it's so boring why bother reading it.

 

[Voyager EMH]

CR and Slope - are some courses harder than others? And other course difficulty discussion​

I am fairly certain that the theory behind CR and Slope is to make all courses the same degree of difficulty so that players who play at differing courses should have comparable handicaps.
I am fairly uncertain that there is a different theoretical purpose to CR and Slope than this.

But we are all differing types of golfer with regards to our strengths and weaknesses and our personal experience of courses will vary from the given CR and Slope.

Even at my home course I find the Yellow Tee CR and Slope makes it more difficult for me to achieve desirable Score Differentials than play from the White Tees.
Other players at my club may have a different view and/or experience.

High CR and high Slope does not make me think immediately that the course is difficult.
I played such a course one time recent years and my score of 10-over par gave me a Score Differential of 5.6. (There was no adjustment to my gross score)
If I played there regularly I don't think my HI would be very different from what it is right now. But others might have a different view or personal experience.
At my course from the yellow tees a score of 5-over par gives a Score Differential of 5.2. Painswick yellow tees and 2-over par gives a SD of 5.5.
I find both these courses more difficult than the course with a high CR and high Slope.

2-over par at one course and you've played to about the same handicap as 10-over par at another course. That is the theory of CR and Slope.

 

[rulefan]

CR and Slope - are some courses harder than others? And other course difficulty discussion​

I am fairly certain that the theory behind CR and Slope is to make all courses the same degree of difficulty so that players who play at differing courses should have comparable handicaps.
I am fairly uncertain that there is a different theoretical purpose to CR and Slope than this.

But we are all differing types of golfer with regards to our strengths and weaknesses and our personal experience of courses will vary from the given CR and Slope.

Even at my home course I find the Yellow Tee CR and Slope makes it more difficult for me to achieve desirable Score Differentials than play from the White Tees.
Other players at my club may have a different view and/or experience.

High CR and high Slope does not make me think immediately that the course is difficult.
I played such a course one time recent years and my score of 10-over par gave me a Score Differential of 5.6. (There was no adjustment to my gross score)
If I played there regularly I don't think my HI would be very different from what it is right now. But others might have a different view or personal experience.
At my course from the yellow tees a score of 5-over par gives a Score Differential of 5.2. Painswick yellow tees and 2-over par gives a SD of 5.5.
I find both these courses more difficult than the course with a high CR and high Slope.

2-over par at one course and you've played to about the same handicap as 10-over par at another course. That is the theory of CR and Slope.

Par itself tells you nothing about relative or actual difficulty. It is simple the sum of the pars allocated to individual holes. The problem is that an 18 hole par 72 could be 18 holes of 490 yards (ie 8820 yards) or 18 holes of 240 yards (ie 4320 yards).

 

[Backsticks]

CR and Slope - are some courses harder than others? And other course difficulty discussion​

I am fairly certain that the theory behind CR and Slope is to make all courses the same degree of difficulty so that players who play at differing courses should have comparable handicaps.
I am fairly uncertain that there is a different theoretical purpose to CR and Slope than this.

But we are all differing types of golfer with regards to our strengths and weaknesses and our personal experience of courses will vary from the given CR and Slope.

Even at my home course I find the Yellow Tee CR and Slope makes it more difficult for me to achieve desirable Score Differentials than play from the White Tees.
Other players at my club may have a different view and/or experience.

High CR and high Slope does not make me think immediately that the course is difficult.
I played such a course one time recent years and my score of 10-over par gave me a Score Differential of 5.6. (There was no adjustment to my gross score)
If I played there regularly I don't think my HI would be very different from what it is right now. But others might have a different view or personal experience.
At my course from the yellow tees a score of 5-over par gives a Score Differential of 5.2. Painswick yellow tees and 2-over par gives a SD of 5.5.
I find both these courses more difficult than the course with a high CR and high Slope.

2-over par at one course and you've played to about the same handicap as 10-over par at another course. That is the theory of CR and Slope.

The theory behind CR and S is not to make all courses the same degree of difficulty. It is to make competition between hc golfers on a given course equal, and comoetition between golfers with hcs from different courses, equal. It is a rebalancing of relative difficulties.
Courses are, objectively, certainly not all of equal difficulty.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The theory behind CR and S is not to make all courses the same degree of difficulty. It is to make competition between hc golfers on a given course equal, and comoetition between golfers with hcs from different courses, equal. It is a rebalancing of relative difficulties.
Courses are, objectively, certainly not all of equal difficulty.

But they are, in theory at least, presenting each golfer with an equal degree of difficulty of achieving the same SD or "what I played to" score.