CR and Slope - are some courses harder than others? And other course difficulty discussion

[DeanoMK]

Here's a good example then:

I played the white tees on The Duke's at Woburn, HI 14.8, PH of 18. I shot a gross 90, 18 over par and my differential was 13.4, ergo, a tough course.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Many people expressing that they "get shots" and/or "get more shots" on courses.

This is perhaps the source of some confusion and misconception.

"Getting Shots", or your Course Handicap, is for play with and against others not against the course.

Against the course you make a gross score (adjusted) and from this gross score a Score Differential is derived. In this process your CH (getting shots) plays no part.
An adjusted gross of 85 will give the same Score Differential for a 2-handicapper or a 22-handicapper. Their CHs (getting shots) is not recorded for handicapping purposes.

When you are comparing courses you need to look at what gross scores you need to make to achieve your desired range of score differentials.

At my home club I find it harder to achieve my desired scores from the yellow tees - shorter course.
This is a subjective view. Other players might have the opposite view.
We are not all the same type of golfer. We have differing strengths and weaknesses.
We are likely to have differing views on which courses we find harder or easier to achieve our desired Score Differentials.

The new system of CR and SR is a great attempt to equalise handicaps from different courses, in my view.
Handicaps are for playing with and against others - that is their purpose. Against the course we all play off scratch, albeit with a nett double bogey limit.

During the next two weeks, I will be playing the two courses in my county where the CR is more than two shots over par.
Many will view these as "long tough courses". This is a true description to some extent.
But I do not experience either of these courses as "harder" to achieve my desired Score Differentials.
If I were a member of either of these courses, then I don't believe my HI would be significantly different from what it is now.

Painswick is a weird case. Course Rating is way below par and it has a low SR. it is a very short course.
I think I would be having a higher HI if I played there.
My HI of 3.8 might just get me a CH of 4 from the yellows, but the notion of "getting 4 shots on the course" is nonsense. I need to shoot level par to achieve a Score Differential of 3.3.
I would need to be 1 over par in order to beat my 8th best score.
At my home club, 6-over par would get that job done at the moment.
I find Painswick "tough".
Other players with differing strengths and weaknesses might have a completely different view.

It can not be and never will be a perfect system for everyone. We are all different types of golfer.

I do get what you explain and have changed my thinking to focus on my gross score, but have to be honest to say that I struggle to move to ignoring the ‘shots the course gives me’ when deciding my target gross score for the round.

That said I know that I must aim to shoot a gross 78 off yellows round my home track, and that I find that harder to do than shooting a gross 80 off the whites.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Here's a good example then:

I played the white tees on The Duke's at Woburn, HI 14.8, PH of 18. I shot a gross 90, 18 over par and my differential was 13.4, ergo, a tough course.

And you were able to play 1.4 shots below your HI on this tough course.
Well done indeed.

Painswick yellow tees.
Par 67, CR 63.9, SR 105.

In order to be 1.4 shots below my HI of 3.8 (PH 4), I would need to shoot a gross score of one under par 66. (I would actually be 1.5 shots below HI of 3.8)

Ergo, this is also a tough course.

 

[Backsticks]

And you were able to play 1.4 shots below your HI on this tough course.
Well done indeed.

Painswick yellow tees.
Par 67, CR 63.9, SR 105.

In order to be 1.4 shots below my HI of 3.8 (PH 4), I would need to shoot a gross score of one under par 66. (I would actually be 1.5 shots below HI of 3.8)

Ergo, this is also a tough course.

Cr63.9 is one easy curse, no question about it. 3 lower than par. That makes it easy.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Cr63.9 is one easy curse, no question about it. 3 lower than par. That makes it easy.

There is most certainly a question about it.
Hence the need for this discussion.
I say that it is a difficult course with very many difficult features.

Two completely blind par-3s where you play up and over a hill with a marker pole on it.
Another par-3 of way over 200 yards.
Many very small greens.
Side-sloping fairways where balls can go a long way into the rough never to be seen again.
This is certainly a very questionable "easy course".

 

[Backsticks]

There is most certainly a question about it.
Hence the need for this discussion.
I say that it is a difficult course with very many difficult features.

Two completely blind par-3s where you play up and over a hill with a marker pole on it.
Another par-3 of way over 200 yards.
Many very small greens.
Side-sloping fairways where balls can go a long way into the rough never to be seen again.
This is certainly a very questionable "easy course".

You mean the course rating is incorrect ? Is it due for survey ?

 

[D-S]

There is most certainly a question about it.
Hence the need for this discussion.
I say that it is a difficult course with very many difficult features.

Two completely blind par-3s where you play up and over a hill with a marker pole on it.
Another par-3 of way over 200 yards.
Many very small greens.
Side-sloping fairways where balls can go a long way into the rough never to be seen again.
This is certainly a very questionable "easy course".

I would agree, Painswick couldn’t be described as easy or tough - very tricky would be apt. It’s usually windy up there and the walk alone makes it hard enough.

 

[D-S]

You mean the course rating is incorrect ? Is it due for survey ?

As far as I know it is not due for re rating.

 

[cliveb]

There is most certainly a question about it.
Hence the need for this discussion.
I say that it is a difficult course with very many difficult features.

Two completely blind par-3s where you play up and over a hill with a marker pole on it.
Another par-3 of way over 200 yards.
Many very small greens.
Side-sloping fairways where balls can go a long way into the rough never to be seen again.
This is certainly a very questionable "easy course".

Absolutely. With a CR 3 under par and SR of 105, the course is "officially" very easy ACCORDING TO THE CURRENT RATING PROCESS. This is a classic example that supports my belief that the rating process places far too much emphasis on length and not enough on other factors.

 

[Backache]

One thing is that everyone is different with different skill sets. Two players with well tested and stable identical handicaps may find that their ability to score on another course varies.
If one is a very strong putter but and a slightly shorter driver and the course they travel to has longer wider fairways but smaller greens they may not score quite as well.
All golfers at any level will not have an identical skill set but the Slope and CR usually works quite well in my experience.

 

[Orikoru]

I personally think I'm in the majority when I say that these numbers are just way too complicated to worry about. Most of us just turn up at a course, see how many shots we get and try and play to that. The perception is that the higher the slope rating is, the more difficult the course is, and the more shots we each receive to compensate for that. I don't really care if that's not technically exactly correct, and I'm not sure why some people feel the need to pedantically try and explain what the real meaning is, when in layman's terms it amounts to the same thing. What is wrong with people thinking of it that way? Nobody loses anything by thinking of it in simpler terms. It's like, I don't need to know what chemical reaction happens in my brain when I eat a chocolate bar - I just know that it tastes good.

 

[sjw]

I personally think I'm in the majority when I say that these numbers are just way too complicated to worry about. Most of us just turn up at a course, see how many shots we get and try and play to that. The perception is that the higher the slope rating is, the more difficult the course is, and the more shots we each receive to compensate for that. I don't really care if that's not technically exactly correct, and I'm not sure why some people feel the need to pedantically try and explain what the real meaning is, when in layman's terms it amounts to the same thing. What is wrong with people thinking of it that way? Nobody loses anything by thinking of it in simpler terms. It's like, I don't need to know what chemical reaction happens in my brain when I eat a chocolate bar - I just know that it tastes good.

Let's say you rock up to a course with

Par 72
CR 70
SR 110

(which, if you're off 14, gives you a PH of 14), what would you be aiming to score?

 

[Orikoru]

Let's say you rock up to a course with

Par 72
CR 70
SR 110

(which, if you're off 14, gives you a PH of 14), what would you be aiming to score?

As many Stableford points as possible like always!

 

[sjw]

As many Stableford points as possible like always!

Lol

Ok, how many holes are you getting shots on?

 

[Orikoru]

Lol

Ok, how many holes are you getting shots on?

I know you're setting me up for something daft, but obviously PH 14 means you get a shot on 14 holes in Stableford and you can't tell me otherwise.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Let's say you rock up to a course with

Par 72
CR 70
SR 110

(which, if you're off 14, gives you a PH of 14), what would you be aiming to score?

It gives you a PH of 13, I believe.

(14 x 110/113) = 13.6 rounded to 14 CH

PH = 14 x 0.95 = 13.3 rounded to 13 for individual strokeplay.

 

[sjw]

I know you're setting me up for something daft, but obviously PH 14 means you get a shot on 14 holes in Stableford and you can't tell me otherwise.

That's the catch - if you shoot 14 over par, your handicap is going to go up. You need to shoot 14 over CR to achieve a differential of 14.

Unless there is something I'm missing in Stableford, which I don't think there is.

 

[sjw]

It gives you a PH of 13, I believe.

(14 x 110/113) = 13.6 rounded to 14 CH

PH = 14 x 0.95 = 13.3 rounded to 13 for individual strokeplay.

Fair enough, the point I was getting to remains the same

 

[Bdill93]

You take a 14.0 index handicapper from this forum and play them against me at my home club and they'll batter me every time in gross score.

There-in lies the problem for me.

 

[Slab]

The bit I totally don't get is if I play another course using WHS. I don't see any logic in the CH calculation

Course A is my home club and course B is Painswick (since its already been used as an example on here)

For course handicap purposes (H index 15.4) how on earth can I get a 14 course handicap at Painswick yellow but a 13 CH at my home club off comparable tees, & my home club is a lot longer with higher slope?
Or for that matter how can there only be a 1 shot diff off whites when in comparison there's almost a 1,600yrd difference in length alone plus a much higher slope (that's a massive 25% longer btw)

It confuses the bejingo out of me




(we use a different colour code for tees so i've taken our medal tees & one forward as white/yellow)