CR and Slope - are some courses harder than others? And other course difficulty discussion

[Orikoru]

That's the catch - if you shoot 14 over par, your handicap is going to go up. You need to shoot 14 over CR to achieve a differential of 14.

Unless there is something I'm missing in Stableford, which I don't think there is.

The point I'm making is - and I can't stress this enough - who cares? When you're talking to mates after a round you don't say things like "How did you play today? Yeah not bad, I managed 15.2 score differential." No, you just talk about your score or how many points you got. The rest of it is superfluous. Do you really believe people are stepping on the 1st tee thinking "I must make sure I get at least 13.7 score differential today to get my handicap down"? Because I don't think they are. They just want to play well and get a decent score.

 

[sjw]

The point I'm making is - and I can't stress this enough - who cares? When you're talking to mates after a round you don't say things like "How did you play today? Yeah not bad, I managed 15.2 score differential." No, you just talk about your score or how many points you got. The rest of it is superfluous. Do you really believe people are stepping on the 1st tee thinking "I must make sure I get at least 13.7 score differential today to get my handicap down"? Because I don't think they are. They just want to play well and get a decent score.

If you don't care that's absolutely fine and your prerogative! Personally, I strive for improvement, and if I step on the first tee thinking I need to shoot 18 over par, and I keep doing that, eventually my handicap is going to go up to 19, and I'm going to wonder what the hell is going on!

 

[Slab]

The bit I totally don't get is if I play another course using WHS. I don't see any logic in the CH calculation

Course A is my home club and course B is Painswick (since its already been used as an example on here)

For course handicap purposes (H index 15.4) how on earth can I get a 14 course handicap at Painswick yellow but a 13 CH at my home club off comparable tees, & my home club is a lot longer with higher slope?
Or for that matter how can there only be a 1 shot diff off whites when in comparison there's almost a 1,600yrd difference in length alone plus a much higher slope (that's a massive 25% longer btw)

It confuses the bejingo out of me


View attachment 48556

(we use a different colour code for tees so i've taken our medal tees & one forward as white/yellow)

Just to find closest match for length, CR and slope between the two course examples I’ve used in previous post

Our shortest tees (green) are 4,888 yards & rated for men at 63.9/106 and with index of 15.4 I’d play off a Course Handicap of 6 from there, that’s a tad longer but a very very similar set of figures to Painswick yellow tees (63.9/105) for length, slope and CR… where I’d get a course handicap of 14 !!

How can that be ?

 

[Crazyface]

Ooooo me ed urts, and I'm only five posts in. I look at it this way. It is what it is, we can't change it, just play with what it says.
PS ...my hc has shot up to 19 from 14 in a matter of three months after swapping courses, and where I'm at is rated easier than the one I left. I'll leave that with you.

 

[Orikoru]

If you don't care that's absolutely fine and your prerogative! Personally, I strive for improvement, and if I step on the first tee thinking I need to shoot 18 over par, and I keep doing that, eventually my handicap is going to go up to 19, and I'm going to wonder what the hell is going on!

So shoot 17 over par then. As long as you know what you need to do, then there's no problem? I'm not just saying that I don't care, I'm saying the vast majority don't. You get your shots and you try and shoot the best you can. Getting bogged down with course ratings and whatnot is taxing the brain for absolutely no added benefit.

 

[DeanoMK]

Do you really believe people are stepping on the 1st tee thinking "I must make sure I get at least 13.7 score differential today to get my handicap down"? Because I don't think they are. They just want to play well and get a decent score.

I have to say that I have become more aware of the importance of my differential score these past few months and I do think about it. Take Saturday for example, I shot a gross 92 and was a bit deflated as I knew I was losing a good score from my last 20 scores, but the PCC was 2 which gave me a differential of 16.3 for that round and my index only went up 0.1 as that was counted as one of my 8 best scores.

 

[Bdill93]

If you don't care that's absolutely fine and your prerogative! Personally, I strive for improvement, and if I step on the first tee thinking I need to shoot 18 over par, and I keep doing that, eventually my handicap is going to go up to 19, and I'm going to wonder what the hell is going on!

Honestly just come and submit a few cards at my place, you'll be single figures before you know it....

 

[Orikoru]

I have to say that I have become more aware of the importance of my differential score these past few months and I do think about it. Take Saturday for example, I shot a gross 92 and was a bit deflated as I knew I was losing a good score from my last 20 scores, but the PCC was 2 which gave me a differential of 16.3 for that round and my index only went up 0.1 as that was counted as one of my 8 best scores.

That's great if you understand it and you can work out your differential on the fly, all power to you. My only beef is with people on here who are trying to 'correct' those of us who try and simplify it, saying things like "you don't actually get shots" and "Slope and CR make all courses the same difficulty", both of which I think are nonsense. There is nothing wrong with thinking of it in more straightforward terms. If I continue thinking of slope rating as being similar to a 'difficulty factor', nobody is going to die, and it's not a mile away from the truth anyway.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

That's great if you understand it and you can work out your differential on the fly, all power to you. My only beef is with people on here who are trying to 'correct' those of us who try and simplify it, saying things like "you don't actually get shots" and "Slope and CR make all courses the same difficulty", both of which I think are nonsense. There is nothing wrong with thinking of it in more straightforward terms. If I continue thinking of slope rating as being similar to a 'difficulty factor', nobody is going to die, and it's not a mile away from the truth anyway.

Even more straightforward is to just go out and shoot whatever score you shoot without worrying about shots and points.

It’s no wonder people let their heads fall of when playing if they are worrying about net scores, or trying to figure out where they stand against a score differential as they play.

Just go shoot the best score you can.

 

[YandaB]

Do people really set out with a target score in mind? How does that help you and does it mean that you change how you play as the round progresses (depending on whether you are looking like beating/missing the target)? My view is that you can only hit the ball in front of you, just hit it to the place that gives you the best chance of getting it in the hole in as few a shots as possible. Rinse and repeat for 18 holes and then add it up. At that point, if you are comparing with your mates, use nett, stableford, whatever. If you are concerned about your handicap compare the Score Differential with the one dropping off, or the highest and divide that by 8 to have an indication of the change. Targets for the round are just too abstract for me.

Edit: For a more succinct post of what I said, see BiMGuy's above mine who wrote much the same thing in about 1/10 the number of words

 

[sjw]

Just to find closest match for length, CR and slope between the two course examples I’ve used in previous post

Our shortest tees (green) are 4,888 yards & rated for men at 63.9/106 and with index of 15.4 I’d play off a Course Handicap of 6 from there, that’s a tad longer but a very very similar set of figures to Painswick yellow tees (63.9/105) for length, slope and CR… where I’d get a course handicap of 14 !!

How can that be ?

Answer: it isn't.

I'm not sure where you've got the course handicaps from, but the 6 is using CR-Par, and the other isn't.

Your short tees: 15.4 * 106/113 = 14.4
Painswick yellow: 15.4 * 105/113 = 14.3

Your short tees with CR-Par: 15.4 * 106/113 + (63.9 - 72) = 6.3
Painswick yellow with CR-Par: 15.4 * 105/113 + (63.9 - 72) = 6.2

 

[Slab]

Answer: it isn't.

I'm not sure where you've got the course handicaps from, but the 6 is using CR-Par, and the other isn't.

Your short tees: 15.4 * 106/113 = 14.4
Painswick yellow: 15.4 * 105/113 = 14.3

Your short tees with CR-Par: 15.4 * 106/113 + (63.9 - 72) = 6.3
Painswick yellow with CR-Par: 15.4 * 105/113 + (63.9 - 72) = 6.2

Course handicaps for my home course come from the National Golf Federation course handicap calculator and Painswick have a Course handicap calculation sheet on their website, so the figures of 6 CH and 14 CH would appear to be beyond dispute (noting the absence of CR-Par)

If I play our shortest tees on Saturday I must play off 6 CH if I then travel 9,880km and play an Open at Painswick on Sunday I'll play off 14

On the day, How does anyone at either course adjust for CR-Par when I turn up to play in an Open?

 

[Mel Smooth]

Our course is the hardest I've played, before slope etc came in we had a massive advantage in team events in the region. Even now I think the rating (135 off the white tees) is way too weak in comparison to the other courses I have played.

The system is an improvement but far from perfect.

 

[rulefan]

View attachment 48556

(we use a different colour code for tees so i've taken our medal tees & one forward as white/yellow)

Our course is the hardest I've played, before slope etc came in we had a massive advantage in team events in the region. Even now I think the rating (135 off the white tees) is way too weak in comparison to the other courses I have played.

The system is an improvement but far from perfect.

Slope is NOT a method of determining the relative difficulty of two courses. Not is it a measure of the absolute difficulty of a course.
It is ONLY an indication of the RELATIVE difficulty between a scratch player and a bogey player on A SPECIFIC COURSE

Of course Slope is irrelevant for a scratch player

 

[IanM]

I know some courses are harder than others. I also know that the difficulty of some courses changes with the time of year. I know I sometimes get a different course handicap on different courses. I know how this is calculated.

Sometimes it seems logical to me on the perception of course/tee, but not always.

I don't lose any sleep about it if the number suprises me.

There's some over thinking in this thread, I think!

 

[Mel Smooth]

Slope is NOT a method of determining the relative difficulty of two courses. Not is it a measure of the absolute difficulty of a course.
It is ONLY an indication of the RELATIVE difficulty between a scratch player and a bogey player on A SPECIFIC COURSE

It actually is a measurement of difficulty, when you are using it to determine handicaps awarded at different courses.

 

[Slab]

Slope is NOT a method of determining the relative difficulty of two courses. Not is it a measure of the absolute difficulty of a course.
It is ONLY an indication of the RELATIVE difficulty between a scratch player and a bogey player on A SPECIFIC COURSE

Of course Slope is irrelevant for a scratch player

So if "A course of standard difficulty has a Slope Rating of 113" (USGA quote) how should we describe a course with a slope rating of 135?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Worth remembering that a higher slope rating will cause some players' handicaps to get lower.

Should those players regard high slope rating as an indication that the course is easy?

 

[sjw]

Worth remembering that a higher slope rating will cause some players' handicaps to get lower.

Should those players regard high slope rating as an indication that the course is easy?

That depends - does being given a lower handicap mean it's easier because it'll take you fewer shots, or harder, because you're given fewer shots?

 

[The Fader]

Way too much over analysis and conjecture going on here!

The system is what is - rightly or wrongly! It's the same for everyone.

Turn up, see what the system tells you your handicap for the day is, hit the ball as few times as possible
to complete your round and put your score in the system. Simple.

Next time you play - rinse and repeat!!