Card retention

[IJames]

So not been involved in club administration then? I had friends tried to tell me (from a club that has done away with scorecards) how much better it is. I assured them that for checking it very much is not. Incidentally this same club introduced an admin fee for every medal last year, how strange when if what you say is correct then it'd be a doddle to administer eh?

I'd suggest that was simply an opportunity to extract some cash from the participants!

 

[IJames]

EG would reply with, "I am happy to answer the question but should should go through the proper channels. You should ask you club and , if they don't know, they should ask the country". So EG are not happy to help and don't. I have never had an answer via the proper channels either.

I can understand that!

I got the ruling by asking EG WHS support directly.

Inside(r) knowledge helps!

 

[IJames]

Soooo......hold onto cards for 12 months so they can be used during the Annual Review.....
OK...I'd love to see the face of the person who has to trawl through nigh on 20k scorecards to find those from someone who's been flagged up.....
Would be a picture....

A smaller one than when the retention requirement was 3 years! I'm inclined to the view that they simply picked a period long enough to cover query or correction period that could be associated with a reasonable event!

 

[rulefan]

Soooo......hold onto cards for 12 months so they can be used during the Annual Review.....
OK...I'd love to see the face of the person who has to trawl through nigh on 20k scorecards to find those from someone who's been flagged up.....
Would be a picture....

We store our cards with a band or string for each comp in date order and cards in score order. If there was a query the comp would be known and the problem card easily found.

 

[rulefan]

A smaller one than when the retention requirement was 3 years! I'm inclined to the view that they simply picked a period long enough to cover query or correction period that could be associated with a reasonable event!

The last CONGU (Jan 2019) regulation was:

Retain handicap records, in electronic or hard copy, in respect of all present and past Members for not less than the current and previous two calendar years and retain all score cards until the end of the current handicap year.
Handicap records for all Members must be returned to the Union or Area Authority should the club cease to be affiliated.
It is advisable to retain at least 20 of the players’ most recent scores. For those who play few qualifying rounds in a year, it may be necessary to keep hard copies of their scores for a number of years.

But prior to that I'm pretty certain it was two years

 

[D-S]

Has anyone ever had recourse to going through bundles of old cards to sort out or clarify any issue more than a week or so after a competition has been closed?
I certainly never had to on all my time on Handicap Committees.
After a couple of weeks the result in the computer became the record for any questions about how well a player had performed in the season for annual reviews etc. we never looked up paper records - they always sat in the secretary’s office in a box untouched gathering dust until they were put into the recycling.

 

[IJames]

The last CONGU (Jan 2019) regulation was:

Retain handicap records, in electronic or hard copy, in respect of all present and past Members for not less than the current and previous two calendar years and retain all score cards until the end of the current handicap year.
Handicap records for all Members must be returned to the Union or Area Authority should the club cease to be affiliated.
It is advisable to retain at least 20 of the players’ most recent scores. For those who play few qualifying rounds in a year, it may be necessary to keep hard copies of their scores for a number of years.

But prior to that I'm pretty certain it was two years

That was, of course, prior to WHS imlementation! So cards need only have been from each comp - not daily as now! Storage, allowing for possible retrieval/checking
of physical cards to cater for the above underlined reg must surely be a problem for clubs!

 

[wjemather]

Has anyone ever had recourse to going through bundles of old cards to sort out or clarify any issue more than a week or so after a competition has been closed?
I certainly never had to on all my time on Handicap Committees.
After a couple of weeks the result in the computer became the record for any questions about how well a player had performed in the season for annual reviews etc. we never looked up paper records - they always sat in the secretary’s office in a box untouched gathering dust until they were put into the recycling.

Longest I've had was about 3-4 weeks after the event.

 

[IJames]

Has anyone ever had recourse to going through bundles of old cards to sort out or clarify any issue more than a week or so after a competition has been closed?
I certainly never had to on all my time on Handicap Committees.
After a couple of weeks the result in the computer became the record for any questions about how well a player had performed in the season for annual reviews etc. we never looked up paper records - they always sat in the secretary’s office in a box untouched gathering dust until they were put into the recycling.

As I posted earlier, it's only confirmtion of marker and their signature that can't be obtained via PSI!

 

[rulefan]

Has anyone ever had recourse to going through bundles of old cards to sort out or clarify any issue more than a week or so after a competition has been closed?
I certainly never had to on all my time on Handicap Committees.
After a couple of weeks the result in the computer became the record for any questions about how well a player had performed in the season for annual reviews etc. we never looked up paper records - they always sat in the secretary’s office in a box untouched gathering dust until they were put into the recycling.

Never in about fifteen years

 

[sjw]

So the answer is apparently that the cards must be retained until annual review, in case an error has been introduced moving between the paper card and the app... never mind the fact that a) with only digital scores (or a choice) there wouldn't be (as much chance of) these errors occuring and b) the paper card could have been filled in wrong anyway. Maybe on purpose for nefarious reasons.

Nah, let's carry on taking up storage space and wasting paper with physical cards. Progress.

 

[LizAig]

So not been involved in club administration then? I had friends tried to tell me (from a club that has done away with scorecards) how much better it is. I assured them that for checking it very much is not. Incidentally this same club introduced an admin fee for every medal last year, how strange when if what you say is correct then it'd be a doddle to administer eh?

I find

Has anyone ever had recourse to going through bundles of old cards to sort out or clarify any issue more than a week or so after a competition has been closed?
I certainly never had to on all my time on Handicap Committees.
After a couple of weeks the result in the computer became the record for any questions about how well a player had performed in the season for annual reviews etc. we never looked up paper records - they always sat in the secretary’s office in a box untouched gathering dust until they were put into the recycling.

A few years ago we had a lady who noticed she wasn’t on the prize winners list for the AGM and she swore blind she’d won a particular comp. I’d pulled the prize winners list off the pc and so I knew she hadn’t won anything but she was very insistent and getting increasingly cross! As we were in the locker room where all the cards were kept it only took a minute to pull out her card…….which showed she’d had a great score but been DQ’d for not signing her card or putting her handicap on card!! When I showed her she just harrumphed and walked away grumbling about stupid rules. In that case I was very glad to have her card to show her because she was so insistent and would have kicked up a right fuss.

 

[D-S]

I find

A few years ago we had a lady who noticed she wasn’t on the prize winners list for the AGM and she swore blind she’d won a particular comp. I’d pulled the prize winners list off the pc and so I knew she hadn’t won anything but she was very insistent and getting increasingly cross! As we were in the locker room where all the cards were kept it only took a minute to pull out her card…….which showed she’d had a great score but been DQ’d for not signing her card or putting her handicap on card!! When I showed her she just harrumphed and walked away grumbling about stupid rules. In that case I was very glad to have her card to show her because she was so insistent and would have kicked up a right fuss.

Wouldn’t the fact (and the reason) that she had been dq’d have been recorded on the computer?

 

[LizAig]

Wouldn’t the fact (and the reason) that she had been dq’d have been recorded on the computer?

Yes but this was before we had a computer in the ladies locker room so I couldn’t quickly pull up that comp to see ……and tbh she’s such a onery woman that she likely wouldn’t have believed me without seeing the card.

 

[IJames]

Soooo......hold onto cards for 12 months so they can be used during the Annual Review.....
OK...I'd love to see the face of the person who has to trawl through nigh on 20k scorecards to find those from someone who's been flagged up.....
Would be a picture....

I believe it's only fear of losing the source docs - by authorities - that causes this approach. Annual review is simply an appropriate cutoff point! Proper filing methods would make the 'trawling' process pretty simple though! I believe that, as long as marker attestation has been performed, 1 month is sufficient time for when computer record supercedes card as the 'source'!

 

[rulefan]

GUIDANCE ON THE WHS RULES OF HANDICAPPING AS APPLIED WITHIN GB&I v1.7 now includes
Scorecard Retention
Whilst there is no mention within the Rules of Handicapping as to how long scorecards should be retained, CONGU® advise that, where physical scorecards are used, they need to be retained for a maximum of 1 year (effectively until the current year Annual Review has been completed).

 

[IanMcC]

Has anyone ever had recourse to going through bundles of old cards to sort out or clarify any issue more than a week or so after a competition has been closed?
I certainly never had to on all my time on Handicap Committees.
After a couple of weeks the result in the computer became the record for any questions about how well a player had performed in the season for annual reviews etc. we never looked up paper records - they always sat in the secretary’s office in a box untouched gathering dust until they were put into the recycling.

We identified a couple of cheats which would have been impossible if there was no physical scorecard. It was an invitational pairs comp, which was scored through ClubV1, but a couple of ringers were playing . Discovered about 3 or 4 weeks later. Both players' memberships were removed.

 

[LizAig]

We identified a couple of cheats which would have been impossible if there was no physical scorecard. It was an invitational pairs comp, which was scored through ClubV1, but a couple of ringers were playing . Discovered about 3 or 4 weeks later. Both players' memberships were removed.

How did you identify they were cheating?

 

[D-S]

We identified a couple of cheats which would have been impossible if there was no physical scorecard. It was an invitational pairs comp, which was scored through ClubV1, but a couple of ringers were playing . Discovered about 3 or 4 weeks later. Both players' memberships were removed.

How did the card differ from the checked computer record?

 

[IanMcC]

Cutting a long story short, both our players played with members who were from another club, but were not the members that were named on the card. They said they played with 22 handicappers, but one was 12 and the other 10.
The signatures on the cards were the deciding factor. The guests who actually played had no idea. Our despicable pair forged them as well.
We only got to find out when someone at the other club congratulated them on their win!! They were nowhere near our club on that day. They contacted their M&H Secretary and he contacted me.