Card retention

[LizAig]

We’ve been told we have to submit all cards regardless if scores submitted on app or pc…..but that may be because our comp sec hasn’t turned on enhanced marker option on Club V1

 

[LizAig]

I have to assume you've never done the job of a handicap or competition committee member.

Electronic scorecards have their limitations compared to a physical card, and the vast majority still do not use them (and it will be a very long time until many do). Basic score input systems are prevalent, and with them, that is all you get on the system... scores; there are no signatures (so no verification of the marker's identity), no possible cross-checking of player & marker's scores, no assistance in identifying/confirming a score that has been entered on the system incorrectly, etc., etc.

Depending what system your club uses there is verification through the app - our club uses Club v1 and they said that England Golf has asked them to set up Enhanced Marker option which, when turned on, means players have name their marker and the marker has to certify the score. If that option is used and players confirm the score after every hole or input the score at the end then I’m presuming everything on a physical card is also on the e version. Our Club comp sec hasn’t turned it on so I’m not quite sure how the verification bit works though

 

[wjemather]

Depending what system your club uses there is verification through the app - our club uses Club v1 and they said that England Golf has asked them to set up Enhanced Marker option which, when turned on, means players have name their marker and the marker has to certify the score. If that option is used and players confirm the score after every hole or input the score at the end then I’m presuming everything on a physical card is also on the e version. Our Club comp sec hasn’t turned it on so I’m not quite sure how the verification bit works though

It's very cumbersome, and unreliable internet access on the golf course makes it unusable.

 

[rulefan]

our club uses Club v1 and they said that England Golf has asked them to set up Enhanced Marker option which, when turned on, means players have name their marker and the marker has to certify the score.

Have they actually set up the facility yet. I heard a short while ago they were still thinking about it.

 

[Jigger]

I have to assume you've never done the job of a handicap or competition committee member.

Electronic scorecards have their limitations compared to a physical card, and the vast majority still do not use them (and it will be a very long time until many do). Basic score input systems are prevalent, and with them, that is all you get on the system... scores; there are no signatures (so no verification of the marker's identity), no possible cross-checking of player & marker's scores, no assistance in identifying/confirming a score that has been entered on the system incorrectly, etc., etc.

I have to assume you’ve never worked in software development so referring back to my previous comment, it’s just a bad system development issue. If you look at myEG as an example of cross checking scores, both players enter both scores on the app and if one player enters a wrong score, it flags it on another persons app.

It’s possible to do so much more with a correctly developed app which would make your and the player’s life so much more easier and if the correctly developed app flagged a discrepancy you’d only have to check that card but we digress. Your question was card retention. even if you want to personally check every card against the score on the system, you shouldn’t need to be keeping cards as there is an electronic record.

 

[Golfnut1957]

Depending what system your club uses there is verification through the app - our club uses Club v1 and they said that England Golf has asked them to set up Enhanced Marker option which, when turned on, means players have name their marker and the marker has to certify the score. If that option is used and players confirm the score after every hole or input the score at the end then I’m presuming everything on a physical card is also on the e version. Our Club comp sec hasn’t turned it on so I’m not quite sure how the verification bit works though

We use the Club V1 system. We name our marker prior to submitting the score, while the score will immediately appear on the competition leader board and on my EG account, it is not accepted for handicap purposes until it has been verified by the marker.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

The question comes - why do we keep the cards.

This is 'hang up' from the days before computer systems were used which showed the scores for each round rather then just the gross/nett.

Personally I cannot see any more useful information being gained from a card verses looking at the computer record other than for a couple of months in case of query for a given comp.

It is probably why you cannot find a hard and fast rule these days just some old boys who want to hang on to the past when it was in writing (from memory in the Guidance for a Handicap committee or some similarly named manual).

I remember looking in our storage room at the back of the office and there were boxes and boxes full of them because nobody had even thought to throw any out. I have a memory of the time asking the local county guy and he said only keep them for a year between each annual handicap review.

Our first medal was Sunday, the winner actually messaged me to say the computer was wrong and he'd shot one lower. Thankfully as we're still using paper scorecards as the master record, a quick photo produced a red face. So there's why

 

[Banchory Buddha]

All cards should be handed in to be able to check the correct scores have been entered. Human error?

Which is why both my clubs have gone back to paper scorecards as the master record

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I have to assume you’ve never worked in software development so referring back to my previous comment, it’s just a bad system development issue. If you look at myEG as an example of cross checking scores, both players enter both scores on the app and if one player enters a wrong score, it flags it on another persons app.

It’s possible to do so much more with a correctly developed app which would make your and the player’s life so much more easier and if the correctly developed app flagged a discrepancy you’d only have to check that card but we digress. Your question was card retention. even if you want to personally check every card against the score on the system, you shouldn’t need to be keeping cards as there is an electronic record.

This surely the crux of the matter. A card or an electronic entry, same outcome. It's a record of the scores. Why bother keeping the paper card when there is an electronic version.

I agree with your other points as well, the EG app works well on that front. Whether you complete the electronic version during the round or afterwards in the bar, the physical card is redundant in reality after the scores have been put in.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Our first medal was Sunday, the winner actually messaged me to say the computer was wrong and he'd shot one lower. Thankfully as we're still using paper scorecards as the master record, a quick photo produced a red face. So there's why

Had the winner inputted an incorrect score on a hole then? Did they not check the scores, per hole, and at the end after entering them in?

 

[jim8flog]

Our first medal was Sunday, the winner actually messaged me to say the computer was wrong and he'd shot one lower. Thankfully as we're still using paper scorecards as the master record, a quick photo produced a red face. So there's why

This thread is not about ensuring scores within a few days being can be verified it is about a previous requirement from CONGU about keeping cards for 3 years for handicap verification purposes.

I would expect any club (that actually requires cards to returned) to keep for a reasonable period to act on complaints about incorrect scores in a comp.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Nonsense.



Who said anything about needing wi-fi on the course?

It is honestly baffling how slowly some things move. We are in an age where pocket computers are the norm and yet golf still relies heavily on paper scorecards. It's just one of those things that speaks volumes about the demographic that makes up the majority of golfers and the game's organisers.

NORM /= UBIQUITOUS, that's the issue.
Plus as the compulsory period of no paper scorecards due to covid showed, people were incapable of checking cards correctly, a written card in front of you is much different, and also quicker when on the course

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Had the winner inputted an incorrect score on a hole then? Did they not check the scores, per hole, and at the end after entering them in?

No everything was correct, he just forgot his score when he saw the results and had recalled one shot better than he actually took.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

No everything was correct, he just forgot his score when he saw the results and had recalled one shot better than he actually took.

Okay. So that could have been altered on the computer then, same as per the scorecard? Same thing then really.

 

[sjw]

Okay. So that could have been altered on the computer then, same as per the scorecard? Same thing then really.

Yeah, I'm not sure what that story had to do with retaining a physical card.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Yeah, I'm not sure what that story had to do with retaining a physical card.

he. thought. there. was. an. input. error.

Thankfully as his scorecard was there, we could check what he'd actually signed for

 

[sjw]

he. thought. there. was. an. input. error.

Thankfully as his scorecard was there, we could check what he'd actually signed for

I'm. Not. Sure. Why. You. Think. A. Digital. Solution. Wouldn't. Include. Some. Sort. Of. Signing. Or. Verification.

It. Would. Also. Mean. That. Errors. Couldn't. Get. Introduced. After. The. Card. Was. Signed. Because. They. Would. Only. Have. To. Be. Input. Once.

Also. I. Think. You. Need. A. New. Keyboard.

 

[sunshine]

People are capable of fiddling with GPS devices on the course, often an app on their phone. But incapable of entering their score on an app. The slow moving progress of golf in the 21st century

 

[Golfnut1957]

People are capable of fiddling with GPS devices on the course, often an app on their phone. But incapable of entering their score on an app. The slow moving progress of golf in the 21st century

Some people apparently are not capable of fiddling with a scorecard and pencil on a course correctly, so they might as well get it wrong with an app and only get it wrong once, not twice.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I'm. Not. Sure. Why. You. Think. A. Digital. Solution. Wouldn't. Include. Some. Sort. Of. Signing. Or. Verification.

It. Would. Also. Mean. That. Errors. Couldn't. Get. Introduced. After. The. Card. Was. Signed. Because. They. Would. Only. Have. To. Be. Input. Once.

Also. I. Think. You. Need. A. New. Keyboard.

We had digital verification, it was disastrous, folk just don't check. They do check a written card.

I notice no comment on your claim that pocket computers are the norm?