Will Scorecards For Comps Soon Be Redundant?

[Deleted member 15344]

What highest number of people you can get on your course at any one time ?
Is it 200....?
Come on, stop making stuff up just to try and force your point.

Well for big events its prob around each hole will have a group on the tee , one on the fairway and then one on the green at any one time , if you take away the par 3's thats minus 4 groups so its 40 - 50 groups on the course during the peak period of a comp ( tee times are from 06:30 through to 16:30 ) - so if you go for the lowest of around 40 groups - playing in 3 balls thats 120 golfers , if in 4 balls thats 160 golfers, but if its closer to 50 groups and yes we have had that during things like Captains Day , Presidents Putter etc then you are hitting 200 golfers if in 4 balls or 150 if in 3 balls.

But even if its just 100 golfers thats 100 devices at say £250 a device - so thats £25k layout over how much for a scorecard

So tell me how its more cost effective

You just appear to want to dismiss others but yet you still havent provided what benefits removing the paper scorecard and bringing in a device has that makes it worth the cost. I guess you cant think of any

 

[Crazyface]

HDID has live scoring, first thing I check after my round, though I do play early but enjoy reading seeing the scores come in.

Yep so did I, but as I say, the afternoon lot would check before playing to see if a good score was already in. If it was they didn't play in the comp.

 

[Crazyface]

Well for big events its prob around each hole will have a group on the tee , one on the fairway and then one on the green at any one time , if you take away the par 3's thats minus 4 groups so its 40 - 50 groups on the course during the peak period of a comp ( tee times are from 06:30 through to 16:30 ) - so if you go for the lowest of around 40 groups - playing in 3 balls thats 120 golfers , if in 4 balls thats 160 golfers, but if its closer to 50 groups and yes we have had that during things like Captains Day , Presidents Putter etc then you are hitting 200 golfers if in 4 balls or 150 if in 3 balls.

But even if its just 100 golfers thats 100 devices at say £250 a device - so thats £25k layout over how much for a scorecard

So tell me how its more cost effective

You just appear to want to dismiss others but yet you still havent provided what benefits removing the paper scorecard and bringing in a device has that makes it worth the cost. I guess you cant think of any

heard of smart phones? Golf apps already have a leader board facility in built, well the one I use has. Technology is already available and ready to use. Problems problems everywhere eh? Did you attempt to block pc's in the work place?

 

[Slab]

Each player is required by Rules of Golf to have a Scorecard - so at a big comp where its 180 plus people entering then its a device each , unless you think one person should hold all the cards ? Or did you propose handing the device aorund between the group whilst they are playing - i can imagine that will help with pace of play.

So 200 hundred would be about right for a small club of around 400 playing members - some clubs have two courses- thats double the number again .





But you didnt say "basic" though did you - you showed a picture of the buggy tablet ( which is a £1k ) and then suggested a smaller one to do

Why couldn’t this device be, handheld, pocket sized, weather proof, battery powered. Loaded with Rules app, local rules, ball search timer, halfway house snack pre-order software, GPS pace of play warnings, multiplayer scorecard (with safeguards over inputting), player handicap stroke information, hole distance GPS, leader boards, matchplay scoring. Able to be remotely locked if not returned on day of use, contact alerts with clubhouse for medical emergencies, anti-glare touchscreen, able to download 40,000 courses and a dozen other things


And you think that can be done cheap ? A basic GPS which does half that is close to £300

So when you comapre it to roughly 30,000 scorecards ( which will last 3-5 years ) at about £1k its clear to see what the winner is in regards cost and ease of use , plus quicker to use , safer for the environment , use in all weather , use for comp and social play ,

Its really hard to find a reason that makes something better than the good old paper and be cost effective

See this is exactly why its so difficult to converse with you. You take a point and make it absolute. You're effectively saying the R&A would resist or are incapable of changing this rule to keep pace should technology one day offer a popular cost effective alternative to a paper scorecard. In reality what the current rule says is just not a factor because if needed it will change (just as it has for DMDs) & here's the thing... you know this to be true, so why even bring it up!
And for some reason you cant even imagine a 4-ball handing over a single device between them on the next tee box to enter a score as others are teeing off & moreover you actually see it as somehow slowing the game down. I'd give you credit for being more imaginative than that

The price will be driven by what the market will bear (a microwave oven in the 80's cost £500 now its £50)

I have no idea if club owned devices will be the future or if it'll simply be an app as someone else suggested or something else entirely we haven't considered yet. I don't know if it'll be 5 years from now or 20 but change will happen
Individual players (even walkers) will have their pace of play electronically monitored, technology is already rolling into everything we do (& that may not always be a good thing) but there's not much chance of stopping it

I enjoy reading & resisted the technology for years. Now every single day I listen to one digital book in my car and read another on my kindle each night. I haven't picked up a 'real' book in years so when we're talking about basic simple functions like a card/pencil, it doesn't get more basic than reading the printed word.. and its disappearing fast whether I want it to or not

One day @Crow will be adding a paper based scorecard and lead pencil to his hickory clubs & leather golf bag while most others have GPS pace chips in their shoes and electronic scorecards

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Because there is no point talking to you, you're fixated on using made up numbers to force home your, point of view . Youre relentless.

I have countered your point and still you fail to tell us all what is the benefit that means the cost is effective over the simple pencil and paper - it seems to be the mode from you , when challenged about the opinion you then deflect onto the person.

See this is exactly why its so difficult to converse with you. You take a point and make it absolute. You're effectively saying the R&A would resist or are incapable of changing this rule to keep pace should technology one day offer a popular cost effective alternative to a paper scorecard. In reality what the current rule says is just not a factor because if needed it will change (just as it has for DMDs) & here's the thing... you know this to be true, so why even bring it up!
And for some reason you cant even imagine a 4-ball handing over a single device between them on the next tee box to enter a score as others are teeing off & moreover you actually see it as somehow slowing the game down. I'd give you credit for being more imaginative than that

Have you ever seen 4 people trying to use the PSI which is a 24 inch screen , 80% of the issue with have are people struggling with the PSI and thats supposed to be simple , imagine if just one key entry goes a bit wrong on one scorecard and you then have people huddled round this one device - already seen it happen with charity days when they use VPAR

Is there a cost effective alternative to the paper scorecard ? I would suggest there isnt so why would the R&A even look at it when the current syste, works very well with very little issues , its not something that is being driven by the pro game , i dont recall any pace of play issues , any administration issues because of the simple pencil and paper.

the price right now for golf equipment goes up - it doesnt go down , GPS , Lazer , game golf etc etc all goes up

The price will be driven by what the market will bear (a microwave oven in the 80's cost £500 now its £50)

I have no idea if club owned devices will be the future or if it'll simply be an app as someone else suggested or something else entirely we haven't considered yet. I don't know if it'll be 5 years from now or 20 but change will happen
Individual players (even walkers) will have their pace of play electronically monitored, technology is already rolling into everything we do (& that may not always be a good thing) but there's not much chance of stopping it

I enjoy reading & resisted the technology for years. Now every single day I listen to one digital book in my car and read another on my kindle each night. I haven't picked up a 'real' book in years so when we're talking about basic simple functions like a card/pencil, it doesn't get more basic than reading the printed word.. and its disappearing fast whether I want it to or not

One day @Crow will be adding a paper based scorecard and lead pencil to his hickory clubs & leather golf bag while most others have GPS pace chips in their shoes and electronic scorecards

Golf is a simple game at the end of the day - people go out hit the ball , write their score down , enter their card and go home - a simple scorecard and humble does that job very well without any additional cost being required.

Lots of sports use the simple bit of paper - why ? because it works and not everything is enhanced by using technology , many sports can survive very well without the crutch of technology -there is still a fair percentage of the world that are happy with the simple things in life working. Golf doesnt need to introduce technology to make it better - some may think its "easier" but then they prob are surrounded by technology in their life and cant survive without it - suspect they are in the minority.

that humble bit of pencil and scorecard works very well - its cheap , failsafe , basic but does the job excellent - until there is something in place that enhances writing down 18 scores and is cheaper then golf will continue to use that pencil and scorecard and wont suffer because of the lack of technology

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yep so did I, but as I say, the afternoon lot would check before playing to see if a good score was already in. If it was they didn't play in the comp.

Surely this simply undermines the validity of the competition and knackers the CSS? One reason I never look at a leader board (when we have one) before I go out.

 

[Orikoru]

Well for big events its prob around each hole will have a group on the tee , one on the fairway and then one on the green at any one time , if you take away the par 3's thats minus 4 groups so its 40 - 50 groups on the course during the peak period of a comp ( tee times are from 06:30 through to 16:30 ) - so if you go for the lowest of around 40 groups - playing in 3 balls thats 120 golfers , if in 4 balls thats 160 golfers, but if its closer to 50 groups and yes we have had that during things like Captains Day , Presidents Putter etc then you are hitting 200 golfers if in 4 balls or 150 if in 3 balls.

But even if its just 100 golfers thats 100 devices at say £250 a device - so thats £25k layout over how much for a scorecard

So tell me how its more cost effective

You just appear to want to dismiss others but yet you still havent provided what benefits removing the paper scorecard and bringing in a device has that makes it worth the cost. I guess you cant think of any

Where are you getting £250 a device?? A Kindle for example is about £70, and a device with only a simple scorecard app loaded on it wouldn't be anymore complicated than that.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I have countered your point and still you fail to tell us all what is the benefit that means the cost is effective over the simple pencil and paper - it seems to be the mode from you , when challenged about the opinion you then deflect onto the person...

Lots of sports use the simple bit of paper - why ? because it works and not everything is enhanced by using technology , many sports can survive very well without the crutch of technology -there is still a fair percentage of the world that are happy with the simple things in life working. Golf doesnt need to introduce technology to make it better - some may think its "easier" but then they prob are surrounded by technology in their life and cant survive without it - suspect they are in the minority.

that humble bit of pencil and scorecard works very well - its cheap , failsafe , basic but does the job excellent - until there is something in place that enhances writing down 18 scores and is cheaper then golf will continue to use that pencil and scorecard and wont suffer because of the lack of technology

This is heaps...

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I've said what id like to see on multiple occasions Phil.
Yet you keep coming back with some old guff about hundreds of devices and thousands of pounds.
Give it a rest mate.

Yes you want two systems to be running at the same time - so that means the Handicap committee will need to first go through the paper cards and then go through the "electronic" cards -

you also have the issue that one person in the group uses paper and one wants to use electronic - which do you use

the marker doesnt have a device to use and leaves his phone in the car , how will he do your scorecard ?

and you will have to do his on paper ? or will you refuse because you want to do it on your phone and app ?

But then you will no doubt dismiss those issues

Have you thought about what you want affecting the whole field ? i suspect you havent

You see not every idea is a winner - i have sat through multiple meetings and presentations with companies like IG and CS about these sort of things and its not something they are really pushing , there is mobile scoring which allows you to sit on your mobile in the bar and enter your score into the system without using the PSI - seen issues with that and its supposed to be simple

I can say with a lot of confidence that the use of the paper and scorecard will not be going anywhere for a significant period of time.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I thought everyone was only playing for handicaps and the win was irrelevant.

Don't think so. Every time I go out in a competitive setting I go out to win - though sometimes after two holes that objective might change to scoring inside the buffer

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes you want two systems to be running at the same time - so that means the Handicap committee will need to first go through the paper cards and then go through the "electronic" cards -

you also have the issue that one person in the group uses paper and one wants to use electronic - which do you use

the marker doesnt have a device to use and leaves his phone in the car , how will he do your scorecard ?

and you will have to do his on paper ? or will you refuse because you want to do it on your phone and app ?

But then you will no doubt dismiss those issues

Have you thought about what you want affecting the whole field ? i suspect you havent

You see not every idea is a winner - i have sat through multiple meetings and presentations with companies like IG and CS about these sort of things and its not something they are really pushing , there is mobile scoring which allows you to sit on your mobile in the bar and enter your score into the system without using the PSI - seen issues with that and its supposed to be simple

I can say with a lot of confidence that the use of the paper and scorecard will not be going anywhere for a significant period of time.

....aaand...when you have a mix of eGizmo and card the eGizmo 'benefit' of having a 'live' leaderboard cannot happen.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I put this scenario to the club captain and general manager as they happened to be together. They could see a situation in a decade or so where DMD devices and incorporated scoring devices are easily accessible and the latter would be able to feed into the club system to register a score. They did however think that while cost will drop in the same way much other tech has, the price would still be an issue and that as a club they would probably only buy a dozen or so to hire in the pro shop. The GM did think (more so than the captain) that there is a market for this but both agreed that for the foreseeable they can't see any reason in terms of investment and cost to do away with a scorecard. You can never say never, but I'd be surprised if electronic score recording has done away with paper and card in the next twenty years totally.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Where are you getting £250 a device?? A Kindle for example is about £70, and a device with only a simple scorecard app loaded on it wouldn't be anymore complicated than that.

even at £70 thats still nowwhere near the level of cost you have for a scorecard is it ?

what is the point in having something that does something exactly the same at more than ten times the cost - scorecard is how much - 10p at most ?

 

[Orikoru]

even at £70 thats still nowwhere near the level of cost you have for a scorecard is it ?

what is the point in having something that does something exactly the same at more than ten times the cost - scorecard is how much - 10p at most ?

I have no idea what the cost is of continually reprinting scorecards, I don't run a golf club do I? But I would say you only have to buy the devices once and they should last several years, which may offset against the cost of reprinting new cards regularly.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Never get the black/white looking at things.

It will transition in over time, first off you will be allowed to do either, then in due course back to only one method of entering your score.

You can fight the change, but it will happen whether 'you' like it or not.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I have no idea what the cost is of continually reprinting scorecards, I don't run a golf club do I? But I would say you only have to buy the devices once and they should last several years, which may offset against the cost of reprinting new cards regularly.

If a club is savvy then it would be re-negotiating the print costs on a regular basis but I suggest the amount printed per order is significant as in most cases the information isn't going to change and there must be cots breaks per '000 ordered. I am sure in years to come when we have a DMD/scorecard/app etc as the norm and units cost a reasonable then many will switch to the new method. I can't see it happening soon though and simply can't see clubs investing in a system if there isn't a need to.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I have no idea what the cost is of continually reprinting scorecards, I don't run a golf club do I? But I would say you only have to buy the devices once and they should last several years, which may offset against the cost of reprinting new cards regularly.

You dont have to run a golf club to be able to think

But here you go

our last run was for about 30k scorecards which last around 3 years and cost the club approx £1k which is about 3pence a card - ours is a basic card , for course maps and extra sponership it goes up to about 10-20 pence

I think its clear which is the more cost effective and until the technology does become more cost effective for clubs and golfers then paper and pencil it is

 

[Orikoru]

I'd stop feeding him.

I mean he has a point in a sense, he's just spouting made up numbers to prove it. In essence, this will only ever happen if it's cost effective for the clubs.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I put this scenario to the club captain and general manager as they happened to be together. They could see a situation in a decade or so where DMD devices and incorporated scoring devices are easily accessible and the latter would be able to feed into the club system to register a score. They did however think that while cost will drop in the same way much other tech has, the price would still be an issue and that as a club they would probably only buy a dozen or so to hire in the pro shop. The GM did think (more so than the captain) that there is a market for this but both agreed that for the foreseeable they can't see any reason in terms of investment and cost to do away with a scorecard. You can never say never, but I'd be surprised if electronic score recording has done away with paper and card in the next twenty years totally.

If you watch a tv show from 20 years ago and look how backward everything looks now, the tech being used etc then you can not really put a timescale on this so far in advance. Tech is progressing so quickly year on year now that it will not really be an issue shortly. Personally I tend to think a simple app is the answer to this rather than individual devices and apps are relatively simple to knock out if the will is there. I happen to agree that this is not going to happen tomorrow or next year but it will start to creep in shortly and it wil be way faster than 20yrs away.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

the cost can be pretty negligible, it's just getting clouded by this constant inference that a club will need to supply hundreds of devices, which clearly isn't true .
I'd 100% love to see it trialled and if it doesn't work out then that's fine.

...but to what benefit? Other than to sate the appetite of tech-lovers. Tell me a benefit relating to recording your score - just one ill do - that an eGizmo has over a card and pencil.