The new Top 100 Course in UK & Ireland

[Snelly]

We do listen to lots of people, and unlike other rankings we also have a large panel of people out there playing the courses during each assessing period rather than relying on past glories or hearsay.

We also have several criteria by which we judge courses, one of which is presentation and conditioning, and if you can find a better-conditioned parkland course than The Belfry has been this year, I suggest you get yourself along there and enjoy a game soon.

You're right - these lists will always have a degree of subjectivity about them and that's a good thing. The fact that you disagree with us is no great surprise, but I can assure you that our assessing process is the most robust out there of any such list...

Thanks for the direct reply. Some interesting points there.

Your point about your assessment process being the most robust is something echoed by every other builder of such a list and I would specifically think of www.top100golfcourses.co.uk as an example of this. In fact, I think their lists, whilst still subjective and debatable, are much closer to my own opinion. I wonder now if this is down to the way that they assess courses compared to you? Not that it matters much. But just because you feel your process is the most robust does not make it the best. It is another subjective issue.

As for playing the courses and judging through the current assessment period, I would be fascinated to know what has changed at Royal County Down to make it worse than it was last year? I have played it every year for the last 3 and am going there again on Sunday for 3 days so could take your information and have a good objective look to see if I agree? Or maybe it is that Muirfield has changed in some way or got a new mower to make it better than it ever has been before so that RCD is ousted from top spot???

So The Belfry is in good nick? So what? It is a farmer's field with 3 memorable holes. There are two courses within ten miles of the place, Little Aston and Beau Desert, that are siginificantly better and not in your list at all! And yes, this is just my opinion but I have played a lot of good courses, some a lot of times and have a wide circle of golfing pals (50 plus players at least) with the same volume and type of experience and cannot think of anyone in that group that would think the Belfry is a) anything more than average and b) better than specifically, the glorious West Hill GC. Maybe your reviewing panel are swayed by their 100% pull rate in the Bel-End?

Sunningdale - Bobby Jones and Bernard Darwin thought the Old was just a shade better than the New and I agree. I have played both every year for the last ten years so am reasonably qualified to have a valid view on it. I would say that the consensus in golf is that the New is not quite as good as the Old. The 5th, 10th and 15th on the Old are as good as it gets. I am genuinely interested why your list goes against the grain on this. I am not asking for a reply by the way, just explaining why I was questioning the choice.

Anyway, we agree that these are subjective and purely amusing food for thought. However, my reasoning for stating what I feel are errors in your judgement is very simple. There will be readers of your magazine and users of this forum that use your list to make a selection on where to spend a lot of money for a special occasion, golfing day out. With this in mind, I think that hearing alternative views from people who have played some of these courses, perhaps even more times than some of your reviewing panel, is very valuable.

This is precisely the reason why I would advise anyone to go to Hankley over Walton Heath. In the opinion of everyone I know who has played both (quite a lot of people) one is much better than the other in every way and you have them the wrong way round. Anyone with a spare £150 to play one or the other could be misled by your list.

 

[JezzE]

In response to your points...

Thanks for the direct reply. Some interesting points there.

Your point about your assessment process being the most robust is something echoed by every other builder of such a list and I would specifically think of www.top100golfcourses.co.uk as an example of this. In fact, I think their lists, whilst still subjective and debatable, are much closer to my own opinion. I wonder now if this is down to the way that they assess courses compared to you? Not that it matters much. But just because you feel your process is the most robust does not make it the best. It is another subjective issue.
We'd be doing ourselves a little bit of a disservice if, rightly or wrongly, we didn't believe ours to be the most rigourous process out there, wouldn't we?

As for playing the courses and judging through the current assessment period, I would be fascinated to know what has changed at Royal County Down to make it worse than it was last year? I have played it every year for the last 3 and am going there again on Sunday for 3 days so could take your information and have a good objective look to see if I agree? Or maybe it is that Muirfield has changed in some way or got a new mower to make it better than it ever has been before so that RCD is ousted from top spot???
Royal County Down was no.2 last time and is no.2 this time just as Muirfield was no.1 last time and is no.1 this time - you must be confusing us with another list...

So The Belfry is in good nick? So what? It is a farmer's field with 3 memorable holes. There are two courses within ten miles of the place, Little Aston and Beau Desert, that are siginificantly better and not in your list at all! And yes, this is just my opinion but I have played a lot of good courses, some a lot of times and have a wide circle of golfing pals (50 plus players at least) with the same volume and type of experience and cannot think of anyone in that group that would think the Belfry is a) anything more than average and b) better than specifically, the glorious West Hill GC. Maybe your reviewing panel are swayed by their 100% pull rate in the Bel-End?
I would have been more tempted to reply to this point if it hadn't been for the slightly flippant closing comment...!

Sunningdale - Bobby Jones and Bernard Darwin thought the Old was just a shade better than the New and I agree. I have played both every year for the last ten years so am reasonably qualified to have a valid view on it. I would say that the consensus in golf is that the New is not quite as good as the Old. The 5th, 10th and 15th on the Old are as good as it gets. I am genuinely interested why your list goes against the grain on this. I am not asking for a reply by the way, just explaining why I was questioning the choice.
When we first put the New above the Old in our last list we were told that this met with the approval of a considerable number of Sunningdale members. And no, we are not alone in making this assessment - this an extract from The Rolex Top 1000 courses - “A top score of 100 has been awarded to just 15 exceptional courses, each of singular historical and architectural merit, of which there are 7 in the British Isles (Carnoustie, Muirfield, The Old Course at St Andrews, Royal Birkdale, the Championship Course at Portmarnock, the New Course at Sunningdale and the Old Course at Royal County Down), 6 in the United States (Cypress Point, Torrey Pines (South), Augusta National, Pine Valley, Bethpage (Black), and Oakmont), with 2 in Australia (Kingston Heath and Royal Adelaide).” No mention of the Old here...

Anyway, we agree that these are subjective and purely amusing food for thought. However, my reasoning for stating what I feel are errors in your judgement is very simple. There will be readers of your magazine and users of this forum that use your list to make a selection on where to spend a lot of money for a special occasion, golfing day out. With this in mind, I think that hearing alternative views from people who have played some of these courses, perhaps even more times than some of your reviewing panel, is very valuable.
I have no doubt that it is, and as you say, everyone's opinion is valid. I just find it a little sad that much of it is presented in an "I am definitely right and you are definitely wrong" manner, usually accompanied by some inference that we are incompetent idiots who don't know what we are doing... The fact that we have been out there visiting every course during the current assessing period means we are far more likely to be giving you an accurate opinion as to condition and quality than certain other lists where there is no such requirement for a recent visit.

This is precisely the reason why I would advise anyone to go to Hankley over Walton Heath. In the opinion of everyone I know who has played both (quite a lot of people) one is much better than the other in every way and you have them the wrong way round. Anyone with a spare £150 to play one or the other could be misled by your list.
In your opinion, which would differ considerably to those of a great many other people...

 

[thecraw]

The more I look at that list and the second 100 its very clearly a lazy list and a half hearted effort. Its either that or you've decided to try and be controversial to stimulate debate and get a reaction.

The fall from the top 100 of both Machrihanish Dunes and The Machrie is beyond comprehension in my opinion. Both are fabulous layouts, both are 100% natural and both are the most important factor in golf - fun to play. Your omission of Donald Trumps new venture also raises my eyebrows when a rival magazine rates it top 10 material already! Was The Great Dunes played? If not why not and if so why fail to rate it? I see and have read Fergus Bisset's review of the place.

The Carnegie Club at Skibo is another noticeable absence! Very surprised at that considering the place has been rated higher than Castle Stuart (25 on your list) recently by another golf writer.

Elie in the top 200 in the British Isles - really???? Yet Irvine Bogside, Prestwick St Nicholas, West Kilbride, Scotscraig, Longniddry and Nairn Dunbar etc are not?

To be honest the more I look at that list and certainly the Scottish courses, both there and missing the more I shake my head. I don't claim to be any expert and I only go on my own experiences. Experiences which are not hampered or tarted up for the Golf Monthly review and I will be as bold as to say your article is well wide of the mark and with the Castle course your very wrong.[/QUOTE

Couldn't disagree with you more on every single point you raise, Crawford, and not quite sure why you feel the need to be so aggressively dismissive in everything you say making us out to be a bunch of clueless idiots. Will answer more fully when I get into the office today...

And you accuse me of being aggressive?

Pot and kettle. Anyway I shall be the first to hold out the olive branch. I assume its the way I come across and if you take offence then I apologise as it was never meant to be aggressive its my view and take on things. I also never once called anyone an idiot. I've asked a few questions and offered my opinion, you said you'll respond to them and I'm very happy that you'll take time to do so.

Hell, you can even call me an idiot since I disagree!

 

[JezzE]

I think it's called 'passion'.

I'd simply question the weightings given to the various rating criteria. It's been quite a while since I've played more than a dozen in that list, but the ones I have played recently don't match your list particularly well. Still, that's what a yearly list is about - provokes some debate and gives, those courses that wish to, some incentive and measurement of rating.

It would be good to see exactly what the rating criteria and their weightings were. Have you included those?

Passion is all well and good and to be welcomed - we are equally passionate, if not more so, about golf courses.

What I find slightly disappointing is the use of words like 'lazy, half-hearted and beyond comprehension' when I know how much work has gone into the project...

 

[Dodger]

Jezz,I know it's a very difficult subject as we all have our own opinions but some of the points made regards the ranking of courses are very valid in my opinion but that's what makes up the listing though isn't it?? Opinion?

It's tough being shot at in the golf industry but hey we both know that's what happens eh?!

You are still way wide of the mark with several of the inclusions by the way.

 

[Ethan]

Inevitably these things are controversial, but the top of this is populated, broadly speaking, by the great links courses, followed by the great heathland/sandbelt courses, then all the rest, and I don't think many would disagree with that general approach.

The debates come with particular courses, and although I don't agree with all that snelly said, I share the contempt he has for The Belfry. I assume the high ranking is mostly driven by people's favourable memories of Ryder Cups which is a pity. So the Belfry is in good condition. Maybe so. To me, though, that doesn't move it more than a few places. It is a bit like a restaurant reviewer saying the food was terrible but it looked nice on the plate. One doesn't compensate for the other. The problem with the Belfry, in my opinion, is that there are a lot of very unexceptional, and some frankly dull, holes interspersed with a few memorable but not necessarily very good ones. They could lay the fairways with cashmere and it wouldn't make a difference to that. The fact that some Ryder Cups were exciting says very little about the quality of the course.

I am also rather surprised at the low rankings for Woburn Dukes and Duchess, and Portmarnock Links (the Langer course adjacent to the other Portmarnock), all in the 90s.

And the panel thinks Old Head is better than Formby, Swinley Forest, Tralee and both Berkshires? Really?

 

[JezzE]

And you accuse me of being aggressive?

Pot and kettle. Anyway I shall be the first to hold out the olive branch. I assume its the way I come across and if you take offence then I apologise as it was never meant to be aggressive its my view and take on things. I also never once called anyone an idiot. I've asked a few questions and offered my opinion, you said you'll respond to them and I'm very happy that you'll take time to do so.

Hell, you can even call me an idiot since I disagree!

Crawford - look, I've met you, I've played golf with you, and got on very well with you over a few days at Machrihanish, and I know you are entitled to your own strongly held opinions. I just have a bit of a problem with some of the turns of phrase you use to dismiss our list - 'lazy', 'half-hearted' - which I can assure you from the amount of work that a considerable number of people have put into this project are as 'wide of the mark' as you feel our list to be!

As we've already discussed, Mach Dunes was not in a very good way when we played it as a result of the winter storms, and I feel that we would be doing readers a disservice if we promoted it into our Top 50, and they then travelled the length of the country on our recommendation to play it, only to find it in a condition not worthy of a Top 100 placing. I've not personally been to The Machrie for a number of years, but those who went this review period referred to it as needing a little investment - I understand it does now have new owners, so maybe it will get the investment it needs to make its way back into our Top 100 next time.

As for Skibo, like Queenwood, we have a slight problem there in that they have expressed a wish not to be part of our rankings process and as a result and will not allow our panellists access to assess the course. There is not a lot we can do about that, although from people I know that have played it, I would have to say the writer to whom you refer is very much out on a solitary limb with that assessment relative to Castle Stuart!

As for your Elie comments, I have played all the other courses to which you refer except West Kilbride, and personally wouldn't have any of them above Elie. That is only my personal view though on that particular one...

As for the Castle Course and your earlier comparisons with Southerness, it is some time since I have played Southerness, but I do remember being disappointed with the course overall relative to the pre-visit hype. I simply cannot see how anyone could say it is a better golfing experience than The Castle Course on many counts, so we will have to agree to disagree on that one...!

 

[thecraw]

And Trump???

 

[JezzE]

Jezz,I know it's a very difficult subject as we all have our own opinions but some of the points made regards the ranking of courses are very valid in my opinion but that's what makes up the listing though isn't it?? Opinion?

It's tough being shot at in the golf industry but hey we both know that's what happens eh?!

You are still way wide of the mark with several of the inclusions by the way.

Absolutely, Allan - it's there to spark debate and we would never expect anyone to agree with our rankings 100%. I'm just a little bit disappointed at some of the turns of phrase used to dismiss certain placings.

As for backhanders... well, if you include the occasional logo'd golf cap, then yes, guilty as charged. But given that I look like a cross between Woosie and Monty in a golf cap I have to say it doesn't have the capacity to sway me greatly...

 

[JezzE]

And Trump???

Sorry, missed that one.

I thought we had addressed this issue in some depth both in Fergus' piece and our feature on how we put the list together. We need a course to have been open for a year before we assess it and it came online way too late to allow that this time round. Given how much emphasis we place on our assessing process we were never going to bend the rules to get it in this time as that would have completely undermined our credibility both with readers and the wider industry who I can assure you are astounded at the ranking awarded by Golf World given that no-one had actually played the course when their list went to press.

That said, it would seem highly likely that it will be a high new entry next time if everything beds in well over the next couple of years

 

[Dodger]

Absolutely, Allan - it's there to spark debate and we would never expect anyone to agree with our rankings 100%. I'm just a little bit disappointed at some of the turns of phrase used to dismiss certain placings.

As for backhanders... well, if you include the occasional logo'd golf cap, then yes, guilty as charged. But given that I look like a cross between Woosie and Monty in a golf cap I have to say it doesn't have the capacity to sway me greatly...

Nothing like a Top 100 ranking to get the juices flowing. I would love to sit down over a beer and discuss the merits of various courses with the panel.It's a subject I find very interesting!

I meant to have a craic with Fergus last week to ask him his thoughts but didn't get round to it.I think maybe I am a traditionalist and have a dislike for 99% of the new courses that have sprung up over the last 30 years most of which just have the same type of feel to them of muckle tee's,muckle bunkers and muckle greens......variety is the way forward!

 

[Snelly]

Jezz,

Sure, plenty of people will disagree with me. Same goes for your list though. It is just opinion, rigorous criteria or not...

The list is there to be debated. For what it is worth I don't think you and your mates are lazy idiots. I do get an inkling from your defensive responses though that you (the panel not you individually) think you are right and that your opinion counts for more than most. Whilst I can see why you feel like this, this does not mean that there are not some errors of judgement, some of which are quite striking.

And I was trying to add a bit of levity when I mentioned the Bel-Air. I would not have done had I known it would stop you from continuing the debate on the merits of the Brabazon.

In hindsight, I don't quite know why I bothered to post on this. You think you are right and I don't. End of story really.

 

[Bomber69]

What I can't understand is why both the Gleneagles Kings & Queens have even been listed, both courses look good on the eye and have a great surrounding but both are in poor condition and have been since the latter part of 2011. I have played both a few time time this is both corporate & team matches and would not rate them at all, infact most folk have been requesting refunds due to the state of the course and members are leaving in their droves, did you play the course!!!

I fail to see why the Renaissance has been listed when its next door neighbour Archerfield has 2 courses that are far better and offer a better welcome and practise facilities than the Renaissance. The golfing experiance will alway be far better on Archerfield.

And the Castle Course St Andrews does have a great clubhouse and the course is well laid out but the green are shocking and takes away you enjoyment from playing this course.

I would suggest that I personaly after seeing the GM published list would not take your recomendation to seriously and question the way you worked out your order.

 

[JezzE]

Jezz,

And I was trying to add a bit of levity when I mentioned the Bel-Air. I would not have done had I known it would stop you from continuing the debate on the merits of the Brabazon.

In hindsight, I don't quite know why I bothered to post on this. You think you are right and I don't. End of story really.

Sorry - not having a great morning so probably missed the intended levity on first read! As for the latter, I don't think that's quite it. We're not saying we are right and everyone else is wrong by any means, just trying to get across that a little more has gone into the preparation of the list than one or two seem to perhaps think.

Proabably just over-tired and sensitive after our recent house move...!

 

[bladeplayer]

Crikey what a read .. wowza .. if you took 10 forumers to say the top 50 courses & let them play them im sure none would be exactly the same , if you took them & gave them a marking criteria list ,ie presentation , condition etc , id say the numbers would be closer but again few would be the same ..
but even if your & my opinion of the same course are totaly different who is to say which of us is right ,

When Ernie made changes at Wenthworth , changes made by a well travelled, well respcted , seasoned pro, did everyone agree it was for the best ? nope they did not ..

We are all different , my list would have feck all Links in them .. why ? i prefer parkland golf ..

Cant say its something to get worked up over tho ..

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I'm not a well travelled golfer like some on here. I haven't played nearly as many courses as most of you, not even played any links until the Hillside meet. But, when I like a course I like it, when I don't I don't. No one will change my mind by shouting louder than someone else about it.
These lists are useful to the likes of me as they are a guide of potential golfing trips as are threads like this.
I decided I had to play Hillside because of it's reputation on here and am glad I did.
I went to the Grove and entered the Back on Black tournament beause I read about it on here, and once again, am glad I did.
Same goes for Beau Desert.
I have often read that people don't like the Brabazon but I've played it and really enjoyed it (condition excellent, and several memorable holes - 3rd, 6th, 10th, 15th, 17th & 18th - the rest very sound holes).
The way I use these lists is to ignore those I've played and try the others and see if you agree with the merits of them afterwards.

My favourite courses:
Hillside - even though I played rubbish
The Grove
Beau Desert - even though I played rubbish
Celtic Manor 2010
Brabazon
FoA - Arden

As you can see I need to play more Links and will use the list for a reference guide.

 

[Ethan]

When Ernie made changes at Wenthworth , changes made by a well travelled, well respcted , seasoned pro, did everyone agree it was for the best ? nope they did not ..

.

Ernie's changes were strongly influenced (directed?) by Richard Caring, the permatanned and dentally enhanced owner, who wanted a Sawgrass type dramatic hole.

 

[seochris]

Anybody played Loch Lomond?

Should it even be on the list as its only open to members and guests?

 

[bladeplayer]

Ernie's changes were strongly influenced (directed?) by Richard Caring, the permatanned and dentally enhanced owner, who wanted a Sawgrass type dramatic hole.

I was not aware of that Ethan , thank you , what im geting at tho is , some liked it , some hated it & some thought nothing of it ..

We are all different so the top 100 will never please all

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

It would be interesting to know what sort of backhanders some of these clubs have given out to 'influence' their rankings