the Distance Debate - should the authorities act

[Grant85]

In reality this has been going on for years, but do authorities need to act to regulate the distance people are hitting it?

We now see more and more events being dominated by 'bombers' and I think within the next decade we will see it almost impossible for a shorter hitter to get through the ranks of the Korn Ferry / Challenge Tour and get status on tour.

Bryson is the poster boy for this, given the transformation and distance he has managed to add. All credit to him, he's come up with a plan and executed it extremely well. I also think it's not just about muscle, but he obviously has excellent technique and range of movement.

Clearly bigger hitters always have and always will have an advantage, but in my view, it has become disproportionate to other aspects of the game - namely iron play, short game. As well as course management.

So it's the same course for everyone and the bigger hitters have a skill, but in my view the unintended consequences of not taking action I see as follows;
* 1 dimensional pro game, with almost everyone bombing it and no premium on longer iron and short game. (i.e. if you have less than 100 yards into 12 greens, you are just not going to miss many greens.
* Courses not played as they are designed, with guys often flying bunkers at 320 etc.
* Realistically every pro tournament will have no option but to narrow fairways and make rough thicker, which actually plays even more into the longer hitters hands (see Bethpage last year).
* longer courses being built which costs more money, uses more land, more water, fertiliser and takes a lot more time to play - even if you are playing shorter tees, you still have to get round a bigger property

I guess, this might not actually reduce interest in the pro game, but I for one would like to see a more equal premium on all aspects - not just bombing it, wedging it close and making 5 or 6 birdies every round.

Earlier in the year, the Distance Report talked about change. Specifically allowing a local rule to have a 'shorter' ball. I'd imagine a ball with fewer or shallower dimples, that would spin a bit more. I'd reckon this is something that is now going to definitely come in, with Bryson perhaps giving the authorities a look at whats to come. Does anyone really want to see people shooting -25 at the Masters and the Old Course?

The equipment is already regulated quite heavily. So why not add a bit to that regulation and test these players with more aspects of the game?

 

[Imurg]

Personally, I'm not sure I give a rat's what the Pro game does, it's a different game to the one I play and always will be.
Do they use the same equipment? Broadly similar for the most part is the phrase I would use
Grow the rough, make them hit it straighter. If a short hitter can't hit it straighter than Bryson then they've no real business ess being on Tour
Don't let the Bryson's of the world do what he did last night on the 3rd ( I think)
Trying to drive the green he knocked it 70 yards left..70 yards.
Got a free drop, knocked it to 8 feet and sunk the birdie.
If there's no penalty for being 70 yards offline then the authorities have no one to blame but themselves.
The only people who are unable to play these classic courses that are too short for the Pros are....the Pros.
It doesnt affect 99.9% of golfers.
So I don't really care whether they build 9000 yard courses for them or restrict performance as long as it doesnt change the game I play

 

[IanM]

If there's no penalty for being 70 yards offline then the authorities have no one to blame but themselves.

You beat me to it... was exactly the point I was about to make. (and before a rules bod steps in, "penalty" is meant is the broadest plain English application of the word!

 

[Sats]

If distance is the be all and end all why isn't TIM BURKE, JOE MILLER, JUSTIN JAMES, or MAURICE ALLEN on tour or grand slam winners? I wonder if F1 fans moan that cars are getting faster? Or if Baseball fans complain about the amount of home runs?
I would go on but @Imurg said it all previously.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Bifurcation is urgently needed in golf. Technology and modern training has made too many courses redundant. Given most are played on hotel resort or members clubs especially in the US is it really viable to grow the rough to sufficient length, change bunkering etc and impact the members who will have to play it the other 50 or so weeks a year. I have no problem using different equipment from the professional game (how much is actually close to resembling what they use) and so lets reign the ball distance in and why not reduce the cc capacity of drivers to make it more of an art to keep online. If there can be a way punish players offline without clubs having to pay loads to change their set up dramatically then all the better. Definitely something needs to be done

 

[Grant85]

If distance is the be all and end all why isn't TIM BURKE, JOE MILLER, JUSTIN JAMES, or MAURICE ALLEN on tour or grand slam winners? I wonder if F1 fans moan that cars are getting faster? Or if Baseball fans complain about the amount of home runs?
I would go on but @Imurg said it all previously.

F1 cars don't always get faster. There are strict rules changes each year that often lead to slower times and safer racing.

Yes - many baseball fans feel a similar issue is developing whereby hitters go out and swing 3 times as quickly as possible and hope they connect with one. There is much less skill in terms of 'waiting for your pitch' or manufacturing a run by nudging into the gaps in the field.

As for the long drive guys - these guys do have a limited set skill set that is catching 1 out of 3 drives (with a longer and straighter club). There may well be some cross over at some point (Jamie Sadowiksi I believe is trying to get status on tour). Obviously there are other skills in terms of approach play, bunkers, putting that all have to be at a certain level. But we are seeing a move whereby out and out distance / driving is going to look very much like the fed ex cup / order of merit standings with other skills neutralised on many current tour stops.

 

[Grant85]

Trying to drive the green he knocked it 70 yards left..70 yards.
Got a free drop, knocked it to 8 feet and sunk the birdie.
If there's no penalty for being 70 yards offline then the authorities have no one to blame but themselves.

I didn't see the early part of the round yesterday, but I'd suggest if he'd hit it a similar direction offline, and it only travelled 280 yards - he'd have been in a bit more bother in terms of at least having a much longer shot in. According to the PGA Tour website, he hit it 355 yards and only had 70 yards (80 after the drop).

You could put a decent amateur 80 yards from the hole on 13 / 18 holes and they'll probably knock it round well under par, even if they aren't in the fairway.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Bifurcation is urgently needed in golf. Technology and modern training has made too many courses redundant. Given most are played on hotel resort or members clubs especially in the US is it really viable to grow the rough to sufficient length, change bunkering etc and impact the members who will have to play it the other 50 or so weeks a year. I have no problem using different equipment from the professional game (how much is actually close to resembling what they use) and so lets reign the ball distance in and why not reduce the cc capacity of drivers to make it more of an art to keep online. If there can be a way punish players offline without clubs having to pay loads to change their set up dramatically then all the better. Definitely something needs to be done

There is, paint white lines down the sides of the fairway and make it OOB.
I don't agree that bifurcation is the way to go and most professional events are played on either resort courses or purpose built 'stadium' courses that have multiple sets of tees so I don't really see a problem.

 

[Hobbit]

Forget what a few players do, look at what the average tour pro is doing. Look at not only the scores that are missing the cut, look at some of the high profile players that occasionally miss it. If they are making the course hazards redundant, think about change. Why can't distance be rewarded? Good putters and good chippers benefit from course condition. What do you suggest should be done about them?

What did the big hitting John Daly achieve?

Seriously, just leave it alone.

 

[Grant85]

Bifurcation is urgently needed in golf. Technology and modern training has made too many courses redundant. Given most are played on hotel resort or members clubs especially in the US is it really viable to grow the rough to sufficient length, change bunkering etc and impact the members who will have to play it the other 50 or so weeks a year. I have no problem using different equipment from the professional game (how much is actually close to resembling what they use) and so lets reign the ball distance in and why not reduce the cc capacity of drivers to make it more of an art to keep online. If there can be a way punish players offline without clubs having to pay loads to change their set up dramatically then all the better. Definitely something needs to be done

I was against bifurcation, but now coming round to thinking it is a more realistic option.
Given the fine tuning these guys can do with the equipment, not to mention the courses they are playing - it's already a much different game than you or I play.
Problem I forsee is at what point does an elite amateur or aspiring pro start to play / practice with pro equipment?
The amateur game will likely remain with the current equipment, but if they rolled back stuff for the pros, at some point a player is going to have to make the change.
You could have an am winning the British amateur, and qualifying for the Open, US Open and Masters - then having to use alternate equipment when they get there.
I'd guess most guys at that level will be able to adapt relatively quickly - but I feel that's the main reason against bifurcation.

Other option is that changes to the equipment impact primarily people swinging at higher speeds and might not actually affect most amateurs.

 

[Grant85]

There is, paint white lines down the sides of the fairway and make it OOB.
I don't agree that bifurcation is the way to go and most professional events are played on either resort courses or purpose built 'stadium' courses that have multiple sets of tees so I don't really see a problem.

They are played on these courses, because the list of 'old' courses that could realistically accommodate a pro event is getting smaller every year.

Majority of PGA Tour set ups have the revenue to do major renovations, but those that are left behind and tip out under 7,000 yards with no space to build AND accommodate fans, 100 man practice range etc. are lost to the world of Televised golf.

Ok, it's only an issue if you think it is, but we'll get to the point that pros are ripping apart the courses that we care about - St Andrews, Augusta, Pebble Beach etc. or the courses continue to be tweaked beyond all recognition.

 

[Sports_Fanatic]

I find it a slightly odd debate as you're basically trying to penalise people for playing the game better than others as a starting point.

I'd be very against thinning the fairways out further at say 350 yds compared with 300yds just to counteract someone like Bryson hitting it well (he's still hitting 62% of the fairways) but I'd potentially agree that more penalties for being way off line could work i.e. if you're going for it then you need to be confident in your game. However, let's not ignore that these players are good when offline and can shape shots to recover - those elements are actually quite exciting like Mickleson at the Masters. I don't necessarily want to see 280yd fairway drive, 180 yd 7 iron into centre of green, two putts all the time - birdies, wedges spinning close,
recoveries are good for golf.

What Bryson is doing is also going against the argument that technology means everyone can be a good driver of the ball etc as we're seeing a current marked difference.

Incidentally we talk about a pro game, but the distance debate isn't yet the same for the women's game. 3 of the top 5 women are c.44, 50 and 76th in the women's rankings for driving distance, the last of those being the world no 1 Ko Jin-Young. Potentially stereotyping, but perhaps more premium on hitting fairway as harder to generate power out of rough, distance more in keeping with how courses are "designed" to be played with hazards in right place, more onus on short game as differentiator and lots of variation in distances and approach to shots between players on a round.

Rather than restricting the PGA tour, perhaps you're just watching the wrong tour!

 

[Orikoru]

As with the countless previous times someone made this topic, I still think the answer is to make the courses harder, not longer. Bryson yesterday hit a 200 yard 8 iron out of the rough onto the green - that shouldn't be possible really. The stats showed he went in that rough 3 days out of the 4 as well and never made bogey. Make it so the rough actually means something and is difficult to hit from, plus make fairways narrower the further up you go, and the bombers won't find it quite so easy.

 

[IanM]

If distance is the be all and end all why isn't TIM BURKE, JOE MILLER, JUSTIN JAMES, or MAURICE ALLEN on tour or grand slam winners? I

...cos they are 10 handicappers within 100 yards of the green?

 

[Foxholer]

While there's only 1 player hitting it outlandish distances, it would be 'discriminatory' to legislate to reduce the advantage he has achieved. Same applied when Tiger burst on the scene and destroyed fields.
When everyone is (or actually 'was'!) hitting it within a few yards of each other is (was!) the time to act!
There ARE other ways to 'protect' courses from bombers, while also providing holes that do reward distance off the tee.

So I believe bifurcation (of the ball) will come, but (again!) not just yet!

 

[need_my_wedge]

Personally, I'm not sure I give a rat's what the Pro game does, it's a different game to the one I play and always will be.
Do they use the same equipment? Broadly similar for the most part is the phrase I would use
Grow the rough, make them hit it straighter. If a short hitter can't hit it straighter than Bryson then they've no real business ess being on Tour
Don't let the Bryson's of the world do what he did last night on the 3rd ( I think)
Trying to drive the green he knocked it 70 yards left..70 yards.
Got a free drop, knocked it to 8 feet and sunk the birdie.
If there's no penalty for being 70 yards offline then the authorities have no one to blame but themselves.
The only people who are unable to play these classic courses that are too short for the Pros are....the Pros.
It doesnt affect 99.9% of golfers.
So I don't really care whether they build 9000 yard courses for them or restrict performance as long as it doesnt change the game I play

Pretty much this. The bombers do hit it longer than us, by a long way, but they are mostly athletes today, certainly in comparison with the players through the 80's and 90's. They all hit it way offline a lot too. The problem for me has always been their lack of "penalty" for doing that. Plenty of people around to spot the ball, officials to come give them free drops for the easiest of reasons. Most club golfers would be playing provisionals and give up looking after 3 mins, and most likely not take half the drops the pro's ask for.

I don't care about the equipment they use, if they have prepped, practiced and developed themselves to the ability they have, that's just the way it is. If they can nail it 380 yds into the middle of the fairway, then they deserve reward for doing so, just make it so they have more trouble playing those offline hits than they do now.

 

[howbow88]

...cos they are 10 handicappers within 100 yards of the green?

Exactly. There seems this idea now that DeChambeau is just some hack who can hit it long, and the rest of his game is rubbish. It really isn't. Sure he hits it miles, but the rest of his game is also very good.

 

[USER1999]

12000 yard golf courses. You heard it here first. It's the only sensible option.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

They are played on these courses, because the list of 'old' courses that could realistically accommodate a pro event is getting smaller every year.

Majority of PGA Tour set ups have the revenue to do major renovations, but those that are left behind and tip out under 7,000 yards with no space to build AND accommodate fans, 100 man practice range etc. are lost to the world of Televised golf.

Ok, it's only an issue if you think it is, but we'll get to the point that pros are ripping apart the courses that we care about - St Andrews, Augusta, Pebble Beach etc. or the courses continue to be tweaked beyond all recognition.

No, they are played on those courses because most members clubs do not want the hassle that a tour event brings.

TBH, I couldn't care less about Augusta (ultra exclusive private club that the vast majority will never get the chance to play) and Pebble (american resort course that is just a money making machine). I do care about the Old course though but it is what it is, it can't really be extended any further and it can be protected with wind and pin placements. If the pros shoot 20 under, so what?

 

[robbeh32]

So I believe bifurcation (of the ball) will come, but (again!) not just yet!

How will changing equipment / ball effect anything. Bryson will still hit further than anyone else unless you change only his ball. There is only one fix and thats either put more areas out of bounds or make offline shots really really hard.