the Distance Debate - should the authorities act

[Foxholer]

...
Now pretty much everyone in the latter stages of the mens draw is 6ft 2in or taller, serves at 125 mph and games can last no longer than 60 seconds. Personally think tennis is reliant on the rivalries of Federer / Nadal / Djokovic and in the years to come when these guys retire, the interest in the sport will drop as the game is just not as interesting.

I have to disagree with much of that!
While being tall has always been an advantage, neither Federer nor Nadal is 6'2" (both 6'1"). Serve speeds are governed by height of net (and reach of player). But simply being tall is not the advantage you might expect - as getting down to half volleys is more difficult, as is the 'shuffle-step' so often reqd. Games certainly last more than 60 seconds. One of the reasons the game is now faster is the intro of Graphite racquets - just far more powerful than the 'old technology' wooden (or steel) ones. And while the FND (not to forget Murray) rivalries are fascinating, there will always be new stars coming through - just maybe not so many all together.
Oh! And the Women's game is almost as fascinating now as the Men's! Certainly better to watch than the BJK, Tracy Austin, Chris Evert 150 shot rallies! Martina and Steffi certainly shook that world up!

 

[harpo_72]

At the moment, what Bryson has done is transformational so it has captured interest of fans and journalists.

But if it quickly became the norm and 90% of the field were muscling it around these courses and taking 6 hours to walk round an 8,000 yard course... I feel it would be bad for the game in the long term.

If 90% of the field do it yeah it will lose its appeal... but that’s where I am up for a little wager, I think the others are maxed out, their swings are beautifully complex, require all the bits to be in the right place to achieve the strike. So I reckon a lot of them have got to their limit... I know I am standing on controversial ground ?.

Now the tennis stuff, the game was slowed down because service speed got to around 130mph via players like Curran et al .. the ball compression was changed. But the tennis circuit is interesting and Wimbledon is interesting because it’s that totally different surface. Clay let’s you see all the ground strokes, grass let’s you see the power .. so may be the answer really is mix it up, make them play don’t let them pick and choose.

 

[fundy]

If 90% of the field do it yeah it will lose its appeal... but that’s where I am up for a little wager, I think the others are maxed out, their swings are beautifully complex, require all the bits to be in the right place to achieve the strike. So I reckon a lot of them have got to their limit... I know I am standing on controversial ground ?.

Now the tennis stuff, the game was slowed down because service speed got to around 130mph via players like Curran et al .. the ball compression was changed. But the tennis circuit is interesting and Wimbledon is interesting because it’s that totally different surface. Clay let’s you see all the ground strokes, grass let’s you see the power .. so may be the answer really is mix it up, make them play don’t let them pick and choose.

that may apply to most of those already on tour, certainly doesnt apply to the next generation coming through that are at school/college and will be on tour in a few years to come

 

[Diamond]

The authorities are already acting. Here are the opening two sentences of the conclusion from the R&A's Distance Insights Project that has been ongoing for the last few years. https://www.randa.org/TheRandA/Distance-Insights



Taken with the text of the report, that second sentence reads like an acknowledgement of mistakes made in equipment governance to me. The full report and conclusions make very interesting reading. I've held a suspicion that oversights were made with the introduction of the modern balls in the 90's - they regulated the clubs more than the ball. It's best illustrated by this graph in the report that shows the rate of distance increasing rising dramatically during the same time frame as the ball and driver innovation. That rate of change from 1990 should have raised more eyebrows than it did at the time because whilst the clubs got better regulated there is a second wave appearing in the last 5 years. What hasn't changed? "It's the ball stupid."

So the conclusion of the R&A is pretty clear to me. They're going to "... review the overall conformance specifications for both clubs and balls ... " and I suspect we'll see the introduction of a new type of ball in the next 5 to 10 years.

View attachment 31522

Looking at the stats for the early 80s 250yards was the average driving distance. Most club players I have played with can do the same regularly. Technology doesn’t stop and people will hit it further and further. The Javelin had the same issue in the 80s where the stadium was becoming too small to contain the javelins so they redesigned it.
The same will have to be done in golf.

I don’t mind Bryson but I am not sure he should have all his irons the same length.

 

[Grant85]

If 90% of the field do it yeah it will lose its appeal... but that’s where I am up for a little wager, I think the others are maxed out, their swings are beautifully complex, require all the bits to be in the right place to achieve the strike. So I reckon a lot of them have got to their limit... I know I am standing on controversial ground ?.

Now the tennis stuff, the game was slowed down because service speed got to around 130mph via players like Curran et al .. the ball compression was changed. But the tennis circuit is interesting and Wimbledon is interesting because it’s that totally different surface. Clay let’s you see all the ground strokes, grass let’s you see the power .. so may be the answer really is mix it up, make them play don’t let them pick and choose.

Ultimately we are moving towards 90% of the field being bombers.

Now I'll stop short of calling the Bryson philosophy a 'model' for Pro Golf because he is obviously still a talented golfer and I don't think it's just a case of putting on muscle and adding 40 yards to your drive. What he is doing still requires being good at golf and very good at driving. But I'm sure we will see more and more guys who look like Bryson and Brooks and fewer who look like Webb Simpson and Francesco Molinari.

 

[birdyhunter]

I'm not a big fan of bifurcation.. half the fun of the game is playing the same courses as the pros with the same equipment and the thrill of hitting a green of a major course in regulation, sinking a putt and comparing with the pros who didn't do that (ok, the other 17 holes weren't as good..!). There aren't many sports where you can compare yourself with the professional squillionaires like for like.

Something surely has to be done about the course set up. On the 17th hole yesterday, a par 5, Bryson missed the fairway by at least 30 yards but still had a decent enough lie in the rough to whack an 8 iron 230 yards onto the green. That shouldn't happen... on my course if you miss the fairway by that much then you probably won't see your Top Flight again... 3 off the tee, that would surely reign the bombers in..?

 

[Grant85]

Something surely has to be done about the course set up. On the 17th hole yesterday, a par 5, Bryson missed the fairway by at least 30 yards but still had a decent enough lie in the rough to whack an 8 iron 230 yards onto the green. That shouldn't happen... on my course if you miss the fairway by that much then you probably won't see your Top Flight again... 3 off the tee, that would surely reign the bombers in..?

I don't see what course set up could do to protect that.

He's in the rough, I don't think it was whispy rough. He's just that strong, he can muscle it through the rough and managed to hit it on exact line, as well as have enough loft in his hand to lift it out.

You could cut everything away and have it firm and fast, meaning a wayward shot rolls a lot further away and potentially into trouble. But you are then reliant on not being so much rain so the conditions stay firm, which won't always happen.

You could make the greens smaller and grow the rough around the front. But that's completely against how the architect intended a par 5 to play, giving people the option of running a long iron up.

You could put a load of internal out of bounds around. But it's really a blunt instrument in terms of trying to control the scoring, with no real option for recovery as you get from rough or even water hazards, where people can still make an up and down for par.

 

[Diamond]

It’s a good point about the original architects intentions. With that in mind why not redesign the courses.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I haven't read all the posts, so maybe this has already been mentioned, but only on I occasion recently have I seen a Pro in an unplayable lie, I.e. Taking a penalty drop. This was Tony Finau.
Can't remember when a Pro was in the middle of a bush. Probably because there weren't any bushes!
I noticed on this latest Rocket Mortgage course, there were plenty of trees but they all seemed to have long main trunks, with plenty of room underneath them.
What they need are loads of gorse bushes. My course has some they are welcome to?

 

[Diamond]

I haven't read all the posts, so maybe this has already been mentioned, but only on I occasion recently have I seen a Pro in an unplayable lie, I.e. Taking a penalty drop. This was Tony Finau.
Can't remember when a Pro was in the middle of a bush. Probably because there weren't any bushes!
I noticed on this latest Rocket Mortgage course, there were plenty of trees but they all seemed to have long main trunks, with plenty of room underneath them.
What they need are loads of gorse bushes. My course has some they are welcome to?

Good point. Our bunkers are awful, they can have them and also not have rakes.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

It’s a good point about the original architects intentions. With that in mind why not redesign the courses.

Why not redesign the ball then the pro's could play the same course as Tom Morris, Bobby Jones, Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus etc without having to find another 1000 yards of real estate.

Most courses have probably ran out of land to extend in an effort to contain the modern pro. How does St Andrews hold an Open moving forward, some sort of composite course?

 

[patricks148]

Why not redesign the ball then the pro's could play the same course as Tom Morris, Bobby Jones, Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus etc without having to find another 1000 yards of real estate.

Most courses have probably ran out of land to extend in an effort to contain the modern pro. How does St Andrews hold an Open moving forward, some sort of composite course?

both Tours should go hickory and old ball , that would sort them out... make them play 7000 still if thats what on offer see how they like that

 

[harpo_72]

that may apply to most of those already on tour, certainly doesnt apply to the next generation coming through that are at school/college and will be on tour in a few years to come

That’s true BdC could be the model to follow ... right down to swing ?. But ultimately do you want to watch this ?

Ultimately we are moving towards 90% of the field being bombers.

Now I'll stop short of calling the Bryson philosophy a 'model' for Pro Golf because he is obviously still a talented golfer and I don't think it's just a case of putting on muscle and adding 40 yards to your drive. What he is doing still requires being good at golf and very good at driving. But I'm sure we will see more and more guys who look like Bryson and Brooks and fewer who look like Webb Simpson and Francesco Molinari.

watching some of the previous rounds they were suggesting that BdC short game 50 yard chips were his weakness. But also the short irons he was still getting to grips with the power.
Sport does create openings for the change of body shape.. there was a time when F1 drivers were not all little fellas. Justin Wilson and Ralf Firman presented issues because their heads impacted the air box intake, the cars weren’t long enough to get them low enough... so the 5’5 guys were taking over, regardless of talent, which is why go karts are dominated by lightweights ...

 

[Deleted member 3432]

both Tours should go hickory and old ball , that would sort them out... make them play 7000 still if thats what on offer see how they like that

Fancy your chances maestro?

 

[patricks148]

Fancy your chances maestro?

i do, 72 holes against Bryson, he would break all the shafts of his 6 clubs and would have none left after the first round.... get in

 

[fundy]

That’s true BdC could be the model to follow ... right down to swing ?. But ultimately do you want to watch this ?



watching some of the previous rounds they were suggesting that BdC short game 50 yard chips were his weakness. But also the short irons he was still getting to grips with the power.
Sport does create openings for the change of body shape.. there was a time when F1 drivers were not all little fellas. Justin Wilson and Ralf Firman presented issues because their heads impacted the air box intake, the cars weren’t long enough to get them low enough... so the 5’5 guys were taking over, regardless of talent, which is why go karts are dominated by lightweights ...

No I dont, have been an advocate of making changes for many years with regards to limiting the game to protect the older courses, the longer they leave it the bigger the problem gets

That said, I also have a huge amount of respect for the transformation he has made to his game and he will reap the benefit massively till the powers that be do make some changes, how much of his advantage still then exists afterwards remains to be seen but you arent going to see many unfit pro golfers in future generations

 

[Foxholer]

It’s a good point about the original architects intentions. With that in mind why not redesign the courses.

Because they'd need to be 8000 yds - and there's not enough room on most properties to allow that! And where does it stop!
Augusta has been buying up adjacent land for years to accommodate this sort of length, but that course is unique!
I posted about a Pro tee on TOC being not on TOC earlier!

 

[Deleted member 1147]

It's a 72 hole tournament, so playing better on the last day or the 1st day... doesn't matter that much. Of course Bryson played well and holed the putts, you should have to do that if you are going to beat a field of 150 top Golf pros.

Ryan Armour and Kisner probably got as much as they could out of that event and had their best finishes of the season - but were 5 and 7 shots away from even getting into a play-off. So that's a lot of putts that Bryson could have missed and still been a shot or two better than these guys. Which is what's happening the weeks he doesn't win.

Webb Simpson is obviously the best of the 'shorter hitters' albeit he's probably longer than people think he is. But he's one guy out of the current ranked top 10. Someone with his game is probably not going to get out of the Korn Ferry tour in a few years, such is the scoring average from the longer hitters.

He won, against a pretty weak field, by 3 shots.
He didn’t run away with it, and he gained more shots against the field on the greens than he did off the tee.

There were shorter hitters in the top 10, who had every chance of winning, but they did not. BdC is a proven winner, one per year on tour, so he should be expected to be at the pointy end both before his transformation as well as after.

Eventually he’ll come up against fields of the top players, where he won’t hit as many fairways and he won’t dominate, just like he hasn’t dominated as yet.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Some very interesting comments and another good, well thought debate. I do think the resort courses and some of the regular PGA tour events simply aren't up to the job because they struggle to present a course tough enough for the week the circus comes to town. How long would it take to grow the rough brutal enough to prevent BdC hitting 8 irons from their thick stuff or has he simply now got the brute strength to muscle it from anywhere? What is the cost implication and how much would a course get from the tour as an incentive to toughen the course up and what would the detrimental effect be for members playing it in the harder state for months prior to the even and after until it is thinned out. DOn't forget they are still paying their memberships to play a leisure past time.

I looked at the British Masters score from last year and it was -16 that Kinhult won on. Now Walton Heath is an oldish club and perhaps not as long as some of the ones on tour but it had a severe defence with its heather. Hard to still smash it miles from that regardless of who you are. Now of course you can't grow that on every course, but even places like Wentworth, where pros can now reach all par 5's in ease has its defence with ditches and trees down the side of most fairways and so there is a degree more premium on accuracy.

I think the problem is the PGA has developed to be a bomb it and then throw short irons dart like into greens. The only real time this changes is a US Open and to some extent the USPGA although it is noticeable that in the week(s) before these events they tend to play a course that has been toughened more than normal to give players a taste of the major event to come. For me, a lot of these US course are now fixed venues on tour and as has been shown when that is threatened the club/community will find a way to keep it on the rota. Being fixed though unless steps are taken to make them more bomber resistant, and the cost implications for someone, somewhere down the line, then we'll simply see scores going longer and players hitting driver/wedge and it coming down to a putting contest week in, week out. The only simple option is bifurcation especially with the ball but I'd like the driver and fairway woods made smaller too. These are suppose to be the most skilled in the world so let them display all the facets of the game not just drive, wedge putt

 

[Crow]

Ryan Armour was in the last group on Sunday. He’s a short hitter.
BdC just played better on Sunday, and putted a whole lot better than anyone else that day.
It’s not like he dominated after rounds 1,2&3, so anyone could have won.

Ryan's stats for final round, so John Daly's distances are now considered short? Says it all really.