Scottish Golf In Decline Again

[User 99]

Until another 50+ golf clubs go to the wall this situation will continue.

There needs to be a cull. Those clubs surviving with 100/200 members and having the members cutting greens, raking bunkers etc need to go under to disperse the members to other more financially aware and astute golf clubs.

It's the only viable solution.

People who want to play golf and be a member will go elsewhere.

I'm kinda hoping that'll happen near me so my club survives.

 

[Jacko_G]

I'm kinda hoping that'll happen near me so my club survives.

It has to. There is no other long term or short term solution. Scottish Golf don't have a clue or the answer they're firefighting at every level and yet again numbers are finances are falling.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Until another 50+ golf clubs go to the wall this situation will continue.

There needs to be a cull. Those clubs surviving with 100/200 members and having the members cutting greens, raking bunkers etc need to go under to disperse the members to other more financially aware and astute golf clubs.

It's the only viable solution.

People who want to play golf and be a member will go elsewhere.

This is a similar train of thought to discussions that I've heard, and been part of, up here. We need 1 club to go in our 10-15 mile radius and those members dispersed will solve the financial issues of the rest. You can apply that to other areas in the region that have their own over supply.

 

[DCB]

We are now reaping the reward of the various cut price green fee vouchers that were so prolific 10-15 years ago. I can remember being slated on here a long while back when I said these voucher schemes woule be the end of club golf as we knew it. People were too happy to make use of them and play cut price rounds. There was never a true winner in those schemes other than the operator of the scheme. Clubs lost greenfee revenue and in turn, lost members, who decided to spend their cash on away days rather than club membership. We are now at a crossroads where club golf either takes the route over the edge of the cliff into oblivion or, it has to pick it's way slowly along an unknown path in the hope that the future can be improved and membership levels stabilised and hopefully grown before it is too late. Without members, how can a club afford to keep its course in top notch condition ? People want to play a good course in good condition. To achieve that, a club needs income to invest in the course. It will be a case of survival of the financially fittest as time goes on. Clubs will go to the wall as Jacko has stated, but, getting those members displaced by closed clubs may not be as easy as thought.

 

[Jacko_G]

We are now reaping the reward of the various cut price green fee vouchers that were so prolific 10-15 years ago. I can remember being slated on here a long while back when I said these voucher schemes woule be the end of club golf as we knew it. People were too happy to make use of them and play cut price rounds. There was never a true winner in those schemes other than the operator of the scheme. Clubs lost greenfee revenue and in turn, lost members, who decided to spend their cash on away days rather than club membership. We are now at a crossroads where club golf either takes the route over the edge of the cliff into oblivion or, it has to pick it's way slowly along an unknown path in the hope that the future can be improved and membership levels stabilised and hopefully grown before it is too late. Without members, how can a club afford to keep its course in top notch condition ? People want to play a good course in good condition. To achieve that, a club needs income to invest in the course. It will be a case of survival of the financially fittest as time goes on. Clubs will go to the wall as Jacko has stated, but, getting those members displaced by closed clubs may not be as easy as thought.

You see I disagree with you and you sound just like a Scottish Golf representative.

Golf in Scotland for years has had the wrong attitude and the we'll charge what we like attitude. These scheme's have come in and they have a place. Why else do Scottish Golf now want a slice of the pie by operating their own system. That isn't for the good of the game like they claim it's to grab a share.

These "cut price scheme's" have probably done more to introduce Joe Public to the game at a reasonable price than Scottish Golf/SGU have done in their entirety.

Greed and assumptions have placed the game where it is.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Have there actually down any research to find why member numbers are actually dropping still ? (is it 2nd club members dropping as costs have risen a lot over the years and dropping,or is it people who barely playing now giving up their memberships due to costs, or is it more nomads[should see green fees increasing if this is the case, but the few set of accounts I have seen, are no seeing a massive uptick in green fee income either or older generation moving on without the younger generation playing so much) or is it a time issue with the younger generation. Have a feeling it is probably many reasons and as said above just needs more clubs to go bust

Got to agree with DCB to a degree about the voucher schemes(2 for 1), I used them to start with and it does work out cheap if you don't play that often and certainly a reason why I did not join a club to start quicker. Bit like the cut price deals available online sometimes. I remember paying £12.50 each to pay a couple of courses in the lake district on twiglight rates, how can they make more money at those rates. Would still have played them if they had been £20 tbh.

 

[Grant85]

I think you have missed the point. It's not juniors that are walking away from the game that is causing the concern at present. It's the fact that once again membership numbers are falling.

Yes - but membership numbers are falling because the average age of a golf club member is probably in the 60s. If Scotland has 5,000 fewer members, it's not unrealistic to think that a fair majority of that is people either dying or getting too old to play and giving up their membership.

This is not a problem that has just happened last year - it happened 25 years ago when clubs had 5 to 10 year waiting lists, joining fees, juniors were lucky if they could even get a game after school and there was very little done to 'advertise' or encourage new people into the sport.

Like I said, getting kids into golf is not a quick fix and you will not see returns from it for years, but it's basically a necessity to increase participation levels, and all clubs should be doing it regardless of whether they are in need of new members or not.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Have there actually down any research to find why member numbers are actually dropping still ? (is it 2nd club members dropping as costs have risen a lot over the years and dropping,or is it people who barely playing now giving up their memberships due to costs, or is it more nomads[should see green fees increasing if this is the case, but the few set of accounts I have seen, are no seeing a massive uptick in green fee income either or older generation moving on without the younger generation playing so much) or is it a time issue with the younger generation. Have a feeling it is probably many reasons and as said above just needs more clubs to go bust

Got to agree with DCB to a degree about the voucher schemes(2 for 1), I used them to start with and it does work out cheap if you don't play that often and certainly a reason why I did not join a club to start quicker. Bit like the cut price deals available online sometimes. I remember paying £12.50 each to pay a couple of courses in the lake district on twiglight rates, how can they make more money at those rates. Would still have played them if they had been £20 tbh.

It depends on how the Club views these vouchers, Groupon have an offer currently for a Club near us, 4Ball for £37.00 between now and end of Feb, I believe Groupon take 40% so the Club gets £22.20 for a 4Ball.
Now, there are a number of ways to look at that £22.20:
A. £5.55 per person for a round of Golf is ridiculous.
B. £5.55 is better than nothing as the course is there anyway.
C. They get the money even if the person doesn’t turn up.
D. They may sell loads of these 4Balls.
E. The 4Ball may go in the clubhouse afterwards and have a meal and a drink.
F. What have they got to lose, it’s winter and why not try it.

I’m sure there are other pro’s and con’s.

 

[Grant85]

I think those saying that a few clubs need to go under in order to 'save' the rest of them aren't really thinking long term.

While it is probably inevitable that some clubs will go under, I don't think it will necessarily save others. It might put them back on track for a while and get them a few dozen members, although probably by the time a club actually goes, probably anyone who is happy to play elsewhere will have done so already and the 150 or so people who are left will be so gutted at their club going under that they might not even join elsewhere.

And in another 10 or 15 years, the clubs who survive may find themselves in similar bother given the demographics.

As I said, think like a business. Invest in things that will bring in revenue / new members / visitors / functions. And get youngsters into the game from a young age. The sport NEEDS new players to become regular players.

 

[shortgame]

It depends on how the Club views these vouchers, Groupon have an offer currently for a Club near us, 4Ball for £37.00 between now and end of Feb, I believe Groupon take 40% so the Club gets £22.20 for a 4Ball.
Now, there are a number of ways to look at that £22.20:
A. £5.55 per person for a round of Golf is ridiculous.
B. £5.55 is better than nothing as the course is there anyway.
C. They get the money even if the person doesn’t turn up.
D. They may sell loads of these 4Balls.
E. The 4Ball may go in the clubhouse afterwards and have a meal and a drink.
F. What have they got to lose, it’s winter and why not try it.

I’m sure there are other pro’s and con’s.

A.

Imagine being a member and and visitors could come and play for a fiver

 

[Grant85]

It depends on how the Club views these vouchers, Groupon have an offer currently for a Club near us, 4Ball for £37.00 between now and end of Feb, I believe Groupon take 40% so the Club gets £22.20 for a 4Ball.
Now, there are a number of ways to look at that £22.20:
A. £5.55 per person for a round of Golf is ridiculous.
B. £5.55 is better than nothing as the course is there anyway.
C. They get the money even if the person doesn’t turn up.
D. They may sell loads of these 4Balls.
E. The 4Ball may go in the clubhouse afterwards and have a meal and a drink.
F. What have they got to lose, it’s winter and why not try it.

I’m sure there are other pro’s and con’s.

I think the main con of that is that while you encourage would be members to your club, when they realise it has cost them virtually a tenner for a game... are they then going to fork out £1,000 for membership?

And you also make existing members think about how much value they are getting for their own membership fees and if it would make more sense to become a nomadic golfer and play different courses on various groupon / tee off times / voucher deals etc.

In short, it devalues your product.

 

[HankMarvin]

You see I disagree with you and you sound just like a Scottish Golf representative.

Golf in Scotland for years has had the wrong attitude and the we'll charge what we like attitude. These scheme's have come in and they have a place. Why else do Scottish Golf now want a slice of the pie by operating their own system. That isn't for the good of the game like they claim it's to grab a share.

These "cut price scheme's" have probably done more to introduce Joe Public to the game at a reasonable price than Scottish Golf/SGU have done in their entirety.

Greed and assumptions have placed the game where it is.

I agree with you regarding Scottish Golf, they have no idea other than to expect the current club members to stump up more money in order to keep the organisation going and do nothing to help struggling clubs and only exist to fill their own pockets, did they stand by the original plan to reduce your fees to one club (your home club) or do we continue to pay the fee for all clubs you are a member off ?

 

[shortgame]

In short, it devalues your product.

Absolutely

 

[IanM]

I think the main con of that is that while you encourage would be members to your club, when they realise it has cost them virtually a tenner for a game... are they then going to fork out £1,000 for membership?

That's a biggy...

 

[HankMarvin]

I think those saying that a few clubs need to go under in order to 'save' the rest of them aren't really thinking long term.

While it is probably inevitable that some clubs will go under, I don't think it will necessarily save others. It might put them back on track for a while and get them a few dozen members, although probably by the time a club actually goes, probably anyone who is happy to play elsewhere will have done so already and the 150 or so people who are left will be so gutted at their club going under that they might not even join elsewhere.

And in another 10 or 15 years, the clubs who survive may find themselves in similar bother given the demographics.

As I said, think like a business. Invest in things that will bring in revenue / new members / visitors / functions. And get youngsters into the game from a young age. The sport NEEDS new players to become regular players.

I agree that most clubs need more junior members but this is not the answer, in your signature you say you left the game as you had kids, this is one of the main reasons people leave the game and some come back and some dont. Was cost a factor in you giving up ?

 

[Robster59]

I think those saying that a few clubs need to go under in order to 'save' the rest of them aren't really thinking long term.

While it is probably inevitable that some clubs will go under, I don't think it will necessarily save others. It might put them back on track for a while and get them a few dozen members, although probably by the time a club actually goes, probably anyone who is happy to play elsewhere will have done so already and the 150 or so people who are left will be so gutted at their club going under that they might not even join elsewhere.

And in another 10 or 15 years, the clubs who survive may find themselves in similar bother given the demographics.

As I said, think like a business. Invest in things that will bring in revenue / new members / visitors / functions. And get youngsters into the game from a young age. The sport NEEDS new players to become regular players.

I'd have to agree, banking on being "last man standing" is not good for the game as a whole. As I have said before, there are over a dozen clubs in a five mile radius all trying to grab pieces of that pie. It's not helping anyone to be fighting over the scraps when work needs to be done to make the pie bigger.
Golf needs to find a way to attract more people to the sport. Scottish Golf over the last few years have to hold their hands up as not really doing enough to address this issue leaving individual clubs to sort out their own local issues when what is really needed is something to encourage more players across the board.
Our club is trying its best to attract new members with special members-only benefits but people do leave for various reasons including relocation, travelling time, a one-off offer at another club, etc.
The nomadic golfers are happy to play different courses through the year but without the core membership, those courses wouldn't exist and perhaps they need to realise that.

 

[patricks148]

Yes - but membership numbers are falling because the average age of a golf club member is probably in the 60s. If Scotland has 5,000 fewer members, it's not unrealistic to think that a fair majority of that is people either dying or getting too old to play and giving up their membership.

This is not a problem that has just happened last year - it happened 25 years ago when clubs had 5 to 10 year waiting lists, joining fees, juniors were lucky if they could even get a game after school and there was very little done to 'advertise' or encourage new people into the sport.

Like I said, getting kids into golf is not a quick fix and you will not see returns from it for years, but it's basically a necessity to increase participation levels, and all clubs should be doing it regardless of whether they are in need of new members or not.

i would say its more likely to be younger guys who think its to expensive to be a member and think they should be able to play at the weekend for less than midweek membership

 

[DCB]

You see I disagree with you and you sound just like a Scottish Golf representative.

Golf in Scotland for years has had the wrong attitude and the we'll charge what we like attitude. These scheme's have come in and they have a place. Why else do Scottish Golf now want a slice of the pie by operating their own system. That isn't for the good of the game like they claim it's to grab a share.

These "cut price scheme's" have probably done more to introduce Joe Public to the game at a reasonable price than Scottish Golf/SGU have done in their entirety.

Greed and assumptions have placed the game where it is.

Oh ... what an insult ..... I'll need to ditch the blazer and SG tie now

Trouble is, players have gotten used to paying very little using these schemes and certainly don't want to fork out what seems like a lot of money for membership when they can play at different places for very little. I have a mate who only recently took up membership in a club in Glasgow. His argument was always that it was too expensive and took too long to play. My counter was what did his season ticket cost for the football and how long did an "afternoon" a the football actually take. He eventually saw the light and joined a club. I'm not convinced greed and assumption have place the game where it is. More the case of heads in the sand and the "it wont happen to us" attitude that is still prevalent.

There was a video on here a while back where one of the speakers at the SG roadshow hit the nail squarely on the head. I wonder how many clubs acted on that as they plan for next season. We can't do anything about what has gone before, but we'd better do something about what we do in future.

 

[Grant85]

I agree that most clubs need more junior members but this is not the answer, in your signature you say you left the game as you had kids, this is one of the main reasons people leave the game and some come back and some dont. Was cost a factor in you giving up ?

Cost was a factor, but time was as well. Obviously if the cost was lower, the lack of playing time would have mattered less.

The reason I have rejoined a club is mainly due to my work situation being more flexible meaning I can nick an hour of 'work time' on a summers afternoon and get away early to get a game. I used to hate rushing like a maddie to get out of work and tee off by 6pm and finishing in near darkness.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

It depends on how the Club views these vouchers, Groupon have an offer currently for a Club near us, 4Ball for £37.00 between now and end of Feb, I believe Groupon take 40% so the Club gets £22.20 for a 4Ball.
Now, there are a number of ways to look at that £22.20:.

To raise one membership fee of say £700, you would need 32 bookings.

A business just can not run themselves on those kind of numbers for a 4 ball, if those numbers are true, then that is scary numbers for clubs to use those vouchers.

The real point I was trying to make is my previous post, is that the voucher scheme stopped me becoming a member earlier, as it was so cheap to just play on the old 2for1 fore mag scheme.