Score in 4bbb used for handicap?

[wjemather]

Yes, I’m aware of that.

My point is why would they introduce a system which allows 4BBB cards to be used for handicap purposes and then apply a calculation which prefers an arbitrary score rather than one achieved?

On the one hand we’re told if we play well in a 4BBB we can expect to have our handicaps adjusted, whilst on the other we’re being told there’s no requirement for the system to be accurate.

Having a standard mechanism for doing this ensures adjustments are consistent and not reliant on the local handicap committee, which may or may not do anything.

The obvious alternatives to the current (or similar) mechanism: adopting MLS, pretending 4BBB scores are not affected by the partner and have everyone hole out on every hole (as if 4bbb isn't slow enough already), playing 4BBB by individual strokeplay rules, wildly inconsistent and subjective application of manual adjustments by handicap committees, or doing nothing (as before, and relying on committees and inter-club communication to weed out problem players).
Of these, only MLS is really viable but it attracts the same "made-up score" comments and the GB&I unions are not about to go down that road any time soon.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Yes, I’m aware of that.

My point is why would they introduce a system which allows 4BBB cards to be used for handicap purposes and then apply a calculation which prefers an arbitrary score rather than one achieved?

On the one hand we’re told if we play well in a 4BBB we can expect to have our handicaps adjusted, whilst on the other we’re being told there’s no requirement for the system to be accurate.

As with most things when it comes to the new system - they are making blind guesses

The scramble HC allowance a perfect example of that

 

[wjemather]

We had a “waltz” on Sunday

Everyone plays every holes and putts out on every hole


Some players went round in way over 40 points as a single

So should their scores be counted in the same way 4bbb does

No.
Firstly, the format is too uncommon to justify inclusion.
Secondly, more than 2 players in a side makes it impossible to develop a similar mechanism to that used for 4BBB. The only realistic option would be MLS.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

No.
Firstly, the format is too uncommon to justify inclusion.
Secondly, more than 2 players in a side makes it impossible to develop a similar mechanism to that used for 4BBB. The only realistic option would be MLS.

Why does a format need to be “common”

And if someone has played and putted out in every hole and scored over 40 putts there should be no reason why someone’s score can’t count - it’s part of opening the bottle when they allowed 4bbb

The EG app is perfect for players to enter their score in anyway

 

[wjemather]

As with most things when it comes to the new system - they are making blind guesses

The scramble HC allowance a perfect example of that

Empirically derived calculations (and allowances); not blind guesses.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Empirically derived calculations (and allowances); not blind guesses.

How many scramble scores did they get to look at what’s the best HC allowance -clubs weren’t sending them in

So “blind guess” masked as “calculations”

 

[wjemather]

Why does a format need to be “common”

And if someone has played and putted out in every hole and scored over 40 putts there should be no reason why someone’s score can’t count - it’s part of opening the bottle when they allowed 4bbb

The EG app is perfect for players to enter their score in anyway

What's the point of including something that isn't played much and would very rarely generate a score differential. The probability of one player scoring on every hole in a waltz is miniscule.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

What's the point of including something that isn't played and would very rarely generate a score differential. The probability of one player scoring on every hole in a waltz is miniscule.

Interesting as it’s played more times at our club than 4bbb comps

And looking at the scores 99% of the teams put their scores down on every hole

But they don’t need to score on every hole for other formats

There is no logical reason why they can’t be included

 

[rulie]

Probably need to take the RoG hat off slightly as it is not the only consideration.

While there is no penalty under the rules of golf for holing out every ball and recording every score in four-ball, standard practice is to pickup once your partner is in the hole and their score cannot be bettered, or when you cannot score. GB&I handicapping guidance reaffirms this standard practice and the club's instruction is entirely consistent with it.

I agree that such a request is solely to ease the job of the Committee and that no penalties may be applied under the Rules of golf for failure to adhere to the request. Club sanctions may be imposed (such as suspensions from playing in future events).

 

[Swango1980]

Q1: Is it true them, that 2 partners could individually both score well over 40 points, but only one of their scores will count towards handicap if they score on 10+ holes?

Q2: If both players score same points on many holes (which I assume is common), how would you, as a Committee member, decide who's score counts?

Played a few of these events this year at different clubs, not once have we been told not to put both scores. In fact, at home club we entered scores on PSI after. It specifically asked for both players scores. If one was just left blank, it is actually a pain in the ass, as you have to type zero and then select an option whether hole started and not scored, or not played. Easier to just type in the score.

Q3: Given we have entered these on PSI, does this just send scores directly to WHS if they qualify? If so, how does Club V1 decide whose score counts if they score the same?

 

[doublebogey7]

Q1: Is it true them, that 2 partners could individually both score well over 40 points, but only one of their scores will count towards handicap if they score on 10+ holes?

Q2: If both players score same points on many holes (which I assume is common), how would you, as a Committee member, decide who's score counts?

Played a few of these events this year at different clubs, not once have we been told not to put both scores. In fact, at home club we entered scores on PSI after. It specifically asked for both players scores. If one was just left blank, it is actually a pain in the ass, as you have to type zero and then select an option whether hole started and not scored, or not played. Easier to just type in the score.

Q3: Given we have entered these on PSI, does this just send scores directly to WHS if they qualify? If so, how does Club V1 decide whose score counts if they score the same?

1. Guess it is possible if the team scores significantly greater than 40, so that one player has less than 9 counting scores.

2. The Committee has nothing to decide, if both players have the same score on a hole then both scores are forwarded to EG and both will also count towards there individual score for handicapping purposes.

3. Yes, see above

 

[wjemather]

Q1: Is it true them, that 2 partners could individually both score well over 40 points, but only one of their scores will count towards handicap if they score on 10+ holes?

Q2: If both players score same points on many holes (which I assume is common), how would you, as a Committee member, decide who's score counts?

Played a few of these events this year at different clubs, not once have we been told not to put both scores. In fact, at home club we entered scores on PSI after. It specifically asked for both players scores. If one was just left blank, it is actually a pain in the ass, as you have to type zero and then select an option whether hole started and not scored, or not played. Easier to just type in the score.

Q3: Given we have entered these on PSI, does this just send scores directly to WHS if they qualify? If so, how does Club V1 decide whose score counts if they score the same?

They score as a side; they have no individual score until a scaled up one is produced for handicapping if the thresholds are met.

Unless it can be identified which player holed out first, the score is counted for both players for handicapping.

Presumably, while not being told not to record both scores, you do get advised not to hold up play by needlessly holing out when you cannot score for your side? That's ClubV1 for you; other ISVs do a better job, providing simple "NR" and "not played" buttons so it isn't a 2-3 step process for entering a 0.

Yes, the ISV sends scores meeting the criteria to WHS. The software makes no determination on which player holed first and where both players have scored the same, the hole score is marked as scored by both players.

 

[D-S]

Q2: If both players score same points on many holes (which I assume is common), how would you, as a Committee member, decide who's score counts?

Without talking them through each and every hole, asking which ball was holed first there is no way of knowing.
I would be very surprised if any committees at all will do this so in almost every case both identical scores will be uploaded.
The only real way is asking nicely , as per clubchamp’s club. Many 4BB comps are Opens so there is no real sanction a committee could apply even if they went to the trouble of going through all the cards, they could warn of a ban on entry to next year’s Open but this seems excessive and unlikely.
My assumption is that this will almost always be in the ‘just too difficult box’.

 

[LizAig]

We received an email from the comittiee insisting that only one score be recorded on 4bbb cards.

Are they correct doing this ?

At the WHS forum the EG rep said if one has put ball down then other beats it then you can put both scores down but what shouldn’t happen is the second person shouldn’t putt out and record the score if they can’t beat the first score down.

 

[D-S]

At the WHS forum the EG rep said if one has put ball down then other beats it then you can put both scores down but what shouldn’t happen is the second person shouldn’t putt out and record the score if they can’t beat the first score down.

But if you put a score down and the other 'beats it' then the computer just ignores the lower score, so why bother putting it down?

 

[Swango1980]

They score as a side; they have no individual score until a scaled up one is produced for handicapping if the thresholds are met.

Unless it can be identified which player holed out first, the score is counted for both players for handicapping.

Presumably, while not being told not to record both scores, you do get advised not to hold up play by needlessly holing out when you cannot score for your side? That's ClubV1 for you; other ISVs do a better job, providing simple "NR" and "not played" buttons so it isn't a 2-3 step process for entering a 0.

Yes, the ISV sends scores meeting the criteria to WHS. The software makes no determination on which player holed first and where both players have scored the same, the hole score is marked as scored by both players.

Holding up play is rarely an issue.

Firstly, we are often talking about the time taken to take a short putt, couple of putts at most.

Secondly, it is rare that we'd have a free run ahead of us. Usually have some waiting to do as we wait for groups in front to get out of range, so a player tapping in to finish a hole is rarely going to delay play.

 

[LizAig]

Q1: Is it true them, that 2 partners could individually both score well over 40 points, but only one of their scores will count towards handicap if they score on 10+ holes?

Q2: If both players score same points on many holes (which I assume is common), how would you, as a Committee member, decide who's score counts?

Played a few of these events this year at different clubs, not once have we been told not to put both scores. In fact, at home club we entered scores on PSI after. It specifically asked for both players scores. If one was just left blank, it is actually a pain in the ass, as you have to type zero and then select an option whether hole started and not scored, or not played. Easier to just type in the score.

Q3: Given we have entered these on PSI, does this just send scores directly to WHS if they qualify? If so, how does Club V1 decide whose score counts if they score the same?

I’ve played 4bbb today and entered on Club v1 and could leave scores blank without it asking whether hole not started etc _ I just clicked onto the box of the person who scored then went down to next line. The only time it asked for whole not played etc was when I accidentally added a zero. Don’t click into the unwanted score box

 

[LizAig]

But if you put a score down and the other 'beats it' then the computer just ignores the lower score, so why bother putting it down?

She said you can put it down, not that you have to! Both players may have had a cracking score and the first person down just wants their score on their individual record .

 

[rulie]

It's not as complicated as some make it sound. Just put the scores (one or both) on the card and let the Committee deal with the card - it is their responsibility to sort it, not the players.

 

[wjemather]

It's not as complicated as some make it sound. Just put the scores (one or both) on the card and let the Committee deal with the card - it is their responsibility to sort it, not the players.

Competition committee or handicap committee?