Score in 4bbb used for handicap?

[Swango1980]

The scores have been entered manually on WHS by HostClub3 instead of letting ClubV1 do the work.
For 4BBB, the system requires the entry of the Stableford points scored on each hole; unfortunately HostClub3 seem to have entered gross hole scores instead giving your mates a total of 82 points and ridiculous score differentials.

I shall pass this message on to them, get them to contact the club

 

[Swango1980]

Played a 4BBB yesterday. The top 2 teams had 45 points, but no scores have gone onto any of the player records.

We use howdidido. I looked at comp results, thought it might say qualifier or non qualifier like it does for singles golf. But no mention at all.

Should scores go to handicap automatically if comp been set up right?

 

[doublebogey7]

Played a 4BBB yesterday. The top 2 teams had 45 points, but no scores have gone onto any of the player records.

We use howdidido. I looked at comp results, thought it might say qualifier or non qualifier like it does for singles golf. But no mention at all.

Should scores go to handicap automatically if comp been set up right?

Yes

 

[wjemather]

Played a 4BBB yesterday. The top 2 teams had 45 points, but no scores have gone onto any of the player records.

We use howdidido. I looked at comp results, thought it might say qualifier or non qualifier like it does for singles golf. But no mention at all.

Should scores go to handicap automatically if comp been set up right?

Yes, all 4BBB comps must be setup as "acceptable for handicapping" if the usual conditions are met (played according to the rules of golf on a measured and rated course, etc.).

A pair scoring 45 points is no guarantee that one of them will meet the criteria for having a score differential calculated for handicapping, but it's unlikely. It's even more unlikely that no players meet the criteria when there are multiple pairs scoring that well.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It's not correct - Rule 23.2b clearly says, "There is no penalty for entering more than one partner's score on the scorecard."
And, it also says, "The Committee is responsible for deciding which score counts for the side on each hole, including applying handicaps in a handicap competition."
What does your committee suggest as the result of not following its inappropriate instruction?

Just seeking further clarification on 4BBB in respect of WHS.

A specific ‘what-if’ to illustrate a generic situation.

After 17 holes Player A of a side is on the card 9 times; Player B is on the card 8 times. Keeping a record (not for individual card purposes) of their own score for every hole both players already have 36 pts and as a better ball pair they have - let’s say - 45 pts.

Player B knows that if he ‘comes in’ on the 18th his scoring will qualify for his WHS record - if he doesn’t it won’t. If both players go on to score the same counting score on the 18th for 4BBB purposes what must they do. Can they choose which player’s score they record to count…in which case they will quite probably record Player A score as their better ball score.

Or is it the case that, in a 4BBB comp set up as counting for WHS, both players must record their gross scores on the card for every hole…and that’s the end of it. The comp organiser will sort out their better ball score for each hole if they have not done so.

 

[D-S]

Just seeking further clarification on 4BBB in respect of WHS.

A specific ‘what-if’ to illustrate a generic situation.

After 17 holes Player A of a side is on the card 9 times; Player B is on the card 8 times. Keeping a record (not for individual card purposes) of their own score for every hole both players already have 36 pts and as a better ball pair they have - let’s say - 45 pts.

Player B knows that if he ‘comes in’ on the 18th his scoring will qualify for his WHS record - if he doesn’t it won’t. If both players go on to score the same counting score on the 18th for 4BBB purposes what must they do. Can they choose which player’s score they record to count…in which case they will quite probably record Player A score as their better ball score.

Or is it the case that, in a 4BBB comp set up as counting for WHS, both players must record their gross scores on the card for every hole…and that’s the end of it. The comp organiser will sort out their better ball score for each hole if they have not done so.

If there are 2 scores on one hole, then the organisers, with no other information, will put both scores down and they (if all the other criteria are met) will be acceptable for handicapping, It is not up to the committee to somehow guess which score must count.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If there are 2 scores on one hole, then the organisers, with no other information, will put both scores down and they (if all the other criteria are met) will be acceptable for handicapping, It is not up to the committee to somehow guess which score must count.

Ok…the general point I was asking about is that it would therefore be quite easy for a high scoring pair to manipulate the recording of their scoring so that one of a pair could avoid their score counting for WHS purposes.

In my specific scenario if they score the same on the last hole both players could count 9 times, but as they only put down one score they can avoid both players scoring on 9 holes and therefore one of the players scores for the round would not count for WHS.

 

[Imurg]

To me, this is spending too much time worrying about your handicap and not enough time spent on winning.....
All the manipulation in the world won't help if you don't focus on the game and play well...

 

[Swango1980]

Ok…the general point I was asking about is that it would therefore be quite easy for a high scoring pair to manipulate the recording of their scoring so that one of a pair could avoid their score counting for WHS purposes.

In my specific scenario if they score the same on the last hole both players could count 9 times, but as they only put down one score they can avoid both players scoring on 9 holes and therefore one of the players scores for the round would not count for WHS.

If the person was that determined not to have their score count, they could just decide not to hole out until his partner has finished. Can then pick up if score not needed.

Though I reckon 99% of pairs don't have a clue how handicap scoring works for 4BBB, nor how many holes their score had counted. So, it would only be something I reckon a player who is incredibly clued in about handicapping. And if they are that geeky about it, you'd also like to think it comes from a good mindset, thus they may have a bit more integrity that another golfer who genuinely wants to con the system?

 

[D-S]

If the person was that determined not to have their score count, they could just decide not to hole out until his partner has finished. Can then pick up if score not needed.

Though I reckon 99% of pairs don't have a clue how handicap scoring works for 4BBB, nor how many holes their score had counted. So, it would only be something I reckon a player who is incredibly clued in about handicapping. And if they are that geeky about it, you'd also like to think it comes from a good mindset, thus they may have a bit more integrity that another golfer who genuinely wants to con the system?

Couldn’t agree more, although there is always the 1% (actually a lot less than 1%) who are cute enough but they’re the sort who’ll find a way whatever the system.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If the person was that determined not to have their score count, they could just decide not to hole out until his partner has finished. Can then pick up if score not needed.

Though I reckon 99% of pairs don't have a clue how handicap scoring works for 4BBB, nor how many holes their score had counted. So, it would only be something I reckon a player who is incredibly clued in about handicapping. And if they are that geeky about it, you'd also like to think it comes from a good mindset, thus they may have a bit more integrity that another golfer who genuinely wants to con the system?

Indeed…I was just interested in what the WHS rules or Ts&Cs of comp might require or say on the matter of recording both players scores in better ball. Pre WHS and Better Ball cards counting it didn’t matter as the potential issue didn’t really exist.

 

[Swango1980]

Indeed…I was just interested in what the WHS rules or Ts&Cs of comp might require or say on the matter of recording both players scores in better ball. Pre WHS and Better Ball cards counting it didn’t matter as the potential issue didn’t really exist.

Well, if there was certainty a player deliberately conned the system to influence their handicap record, there doesn't need to be a specific rule from WHS on this scenario. Committees are there to judge how to deal with this. How do they deal with anyone trying to con the system?

But, it is unlikely they'd ever know, unless the player admits to it, or the people they are playing with knew what was going on and reported it

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Well, if there was certainty a player deliberately conned the system to influence their handicap record, there doesn't need to be a specific rule from WHS on this scenario. Committees are there to judge how to deal with this. How do they deal with anyone trying to con the system?

But, it is unlikely they'd ever know, unless the player admits to it, or the people they are playing with knew what was going on and reported it

That’s fine…

I was just wondering if there was any general requirement to record both players scores for a hole or holes, or any specific scenario(s) when it is required (other than when there is doubt about one players score if it is the better for the pair).

 

[Swango1980]

That’s fine…

I was just wondering if there was any general requirement to record both players scores for a hole or holes, or any specific scenario(s) when it is required (other than when there is doubt about one players score if it is the better for the pair).

I thought many strongly encouraged a partner to pick up their ball if they can't better the score. That 15 seconds speeding up play?

So I doubt there would be any requirement for both players to finish, thus no expectation for 2 scores to be recorded?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I thought many strongly encouraged a partner to pick up their ball if they can't better the score. That 15 seconds speeding up play?

So I doubt there would be any requirement for both players to finish, thus no expectation for 2 scores to be recorded?

I doubt also.

But, as said, as WHS now covers better ball comps and there are specific conditions around when an individuals score falls into WHS acceptance, that there might be something stated to mitigate against the certainly small chance of manipulation around ‘at least nine’ counting scores.

 

[Swango1980]

I doubt also.

But, as said, as WHS now covers better ball comps and there are specific conditions around when an individuals score falls into WHS acceptance, that there might be something stated to mitigate against the certainly small chance of manipulation around ‘at least nine’ counting scores.

Which is why they have a methodology to give a score if a player doesn't record a score on a hole.

It wasn't long ago when discussing this format, several of the knowledgeable ones in here were pretty much insisting a player doesn't finish a hole if their score will not count. And it seems quite a few Committees insist ONLY the scoring players score should be recorded. Writing both scores on a card was almost considered a sin worthy of capital punishment.

So I'm almost certain there is zilch about a player not recording a score because it won't count, or insisting whose score should count if both can score the same.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Which is why they have a methodology to give a score if a player doesn't record a score on a hole.

It wasn't long ago when discussing this format, several of the knowledgeable ones in here were pretty much insisting a player doesn't finish a hole if their score will not count. And it seems quite a few Committees insist ONLY the scoring players score should be recorded. Writing both scores on a card was almost considered a sin worthy of capital punishment.

So I'm almost certain there is zilch about a player not recording a score because it won't count, or insisting whose score should count if both can score the same.

The above I expect to be the case. The only additional, and final, thought I’ll have on the matter is that it’s only the player with >=9 scores on the card to whom the methodology applies.

 

[D-S]

The only guidance on this from EG is that “Handicap Committees will be justified in disregarding scores for handicapping purposes where scores are recorded for both players on a significant number of holes on a regular basis”. Significant and regular are not defined. If it is away players in an Open it is impossible for the committee to know if this is something they have done on a regular basis.
Might have been a good idea to give committee members a bit more concrete help.
However think of this scenario, the 18th is a par 3 and there is a 2’s comp - both players get a 2, as the committee which one are you going to disregard?

 

[Swango1980]

The above I expect to be the case. The only additional, and final, thought I’ll have on the matter is that it’s only the player with >=9 scores on the card to whom the methodology applies.

True. But, imagine writing a condition:

If a Player has only scored on 8 holes after 17, both players can score equally on 18th hole AND the team are likely to shoot 42+ points, the Player who has only scored on 8 holes must use their score.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

True. But, imagine writing a condition:

If a Player has only scored on 8 holes after 17, both players can score equally on 18th hole AND the team are likely to shoot 42+ points, the Player who has only scored on 8 holes must use their score.

One final final thought - choice could happen on any hole to minimise likelihood of one player having >= 9 scores. But yes..I think it’s unlikely.