Rollups, Swindles, WHS

[Blue in Munich]

People struggle to embrace change. WHS won't work properly whilst golfers are reluctant to submit the majority of their rounds. It's a huge culture shift in the way we play for our handicaps here in the UK.

A "card in hand" generally means you're playing in a competition, the outcome of which will impact your handicap. There's a unique excitement associated with that, as there is playing a bounce game with your mates. Combining the two isn't for everyone, certainly not myself.

Usually when there is no perceived benefit; if people can see the reason and the benefits then there isn’t usually a problem.

It’s change for change sake or for no good reason I find people struggle with.

I wonder if that says something about WHS...

 

[Blue in Munich]

Nay lad...... in this case taking it forwards. ?? ?️‍

That reads as an admission that you’ve taken it backwards in other cases.

 

[wjemather]

Usually when there is no perceived benefit; if people can see the reason and the benefits then there isn’t usually a problem.

It’s change for change sake or for no good reason I find people struggle with.

I wonder if that says something about WHS...

Not at all. It's a reflection of the general lack of understanding of both WHS and UHS (benefits and shortcomings). If you don't understand the old system, it's difficult to reason change to a new one.

 

[LincolnShep]

It seems (and I didn't know this before) that some people only enjoy golf when it doesn't count towards their handicap. They refer to rounds in a binary way - they're either social, or they're qualifying - never both. I can see why people of this mindset would be put off by the idea of moving rounds from their social bucket to their qualifying bucket. It's troubling for them and I think I can understand why.

It would appear that I'm lucky to enjoy playing whether my handicap is likely to be adjusted or not - all my rounds feel social to me. I just try to play to the best of my (limited) ability and the handicap is something that happens in the background.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Not at all. It's a reflection of the general lack of understanding of both WHS and UHS (benefits and shortcomings). If you don't understand the old system, it's difficult to reason change to a new one.

It’s more difficult to understand when those who seem to consider that there are benefits to the system have more interest in blaming people for not understanding them than they are in explaining the benefits.

 

[2blue]

That reads as an admission that you’ve taken it backwards in other cases.

???

 

[backwoodsman]

It seems (and I didn't know this before) that some people only enjoy golf when it doesn't count towards their handicap. They refer to rounds in a binary way - they're either social, or they're qualifying - never both. I can see why people of this mindset would be put off by the idea of moving rounds from their social bucket to their qualifying bucket. It's troubling for them and I think I can understand why.

It would appear that I'm lucky to enjoy playing whether my handicap is likely to be adjusted or not - all my rounds feel social to me. I just try to play to the best of my (limited) ability and the handicap is something that happens in the background.

I've never understood the antipathy of putting swindle cards in for h/c. Regardless of whether it was pre-covid or post-covid, pre-WHS or post-WHS, our swindle was always played "by the rules and no gimmees" - simply to make it fair to everyone. We still enjoyed ourselves. Only difference now is that you would be (metaphorically) dropping your card in the box, rather than the bin.

 

[2blue]

I've never understood the antipathy of putting swindle cards in for h/c. Regardless of whether it was pre-covid or post-covid, pre-WHS or post-WHS, our swindle was always played "by the rules and no gimmees" - simply to make it fair to everyone. We still enjoyed ourselves. Only difference now is that you would be (metaphorically) dropping your card in the box, rather than the bin.

??

 

[Swango1980]

It seems (and I didn't know this before) that some people only enjoy golf when it doesn't count towards their handicap. They refer to rounds in a binary way - they're either social, or they're qualifying - never both. I can see why people of this mindset would be put off by the idea of moving rounds from their social bucket to their qualifying bucket. It's troubling for them and I think I can understand why.

It would appear that I'm lucky to enjoy playing whether my handicap is likely to be adjusted or not - all my rounds feel social to me. I just try to play to the best of my (limited) ability and the handicap is something that happens in the background.

Years ago, for our Captain Versus Vice Captain comp, the Captain suggested making in a qualifying competition for the first time, and this was accepted. A few days later, the Vice demanded it be made a non-qualifier again. His reasons were purely "I want it to be a fun competition, not a qualifier". There was resistance to this by the Captain, so the argument raged on. Effectively, it was a big reason for the captain leaving the club.

I don't understand the thought process of qualifiers (acceptable rounds) NOT being fun from my own point of view, but clearly it is a very real factor for others, otherwise this debate would never have happened.

 

[BiMGuy]

It seems (and I didn't know this before) that some people only enjoy golf when it doesn't count towards their handicap. They refer to rounds in a binary way - they're either social, or they're qualifying - never both. I can see why people of this mindset would be put off by the idea of moving rounds from their social bucket to their qualifying bucket. It's troubling for them and I think I can understand why.

It would appear that I'm lucky to enjoy playing whether my handicap is likely to be adjusted or not - all my rounds feel social to me. I just try to play to the best of my (limited) ability and the handicap is something that happens in the background.

My thoughts exactly. My attitude to hitting shots and holing out is the same regardless of who I'm playing with or the format.

I suspect its psychological. How many people regularly shoot 38 points in a swindle then can't get near that when there is a 'card in their hand'?

Suddenly those tap in gimmies that were actually 3/4/5ft putts aren't that easy and add a lot of strokes to their score. That 38 points becomes 28 points. The perception then, is they can't play with a card in their hand.

 

[Swango1980]

My thoughts exactly. My attitude to hitting shots and holing out is the same regardless of who I'm playing with or the format.

I suspect its psychological. How many people regularly shoot 38 points in a swindle then can't get near that when there is a 'card in their hand'?

Suddenly those tap in gimmies that were actually 3/4/5ft putts aren't that easy and add a lot of strokes to their score. That 38 points becomes 28 points. The perception then, is they can't play with a card in their hand.

I've played with quite a few people who I tell I'm submitting my score for handicap. Their reply is "I won't, I want my handicap to go down but I'm not playing very well at the minute". They are less likely to commit to a round if weather is anything less than stunning. Ironically, they often shoot 40+ points and then regret they didn't submit score.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I wonder what some people would think of places like Swinley Forest or New Zealand GC who have not got any official HCs , they don’t have WHS , any official rating

They just play the course for the enjoyment of the sport - not interested in being ruled by a governing body on how they play the sport

 

[Swango1980]

I wonder what some people would think of places like Swinley Forest or New Zealand GC who have not got any official HCs , they don’t have WHS , any official rating

They just play the course for the enjoyment of the sport - not interested in being ruled by a governing body on how they play the sport

Is that not something similar to what they do at Augusta for members?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Is that not something similar to what they do at Augusta for members?

I believe so - some have their own HC system for their own comps etc

But I think the message is - not everyone plays the sport for the same reason

Some don’t care about their handicap , some don’t care about comps. We have members that don’t even have a HC and some that haven’t been updated in years

People need to see that there are many people that don’t want to put their card in every time they play , they have no interest in it and just want to enjoy the game

It’s nothing to do with resisting change , or being stuck in the mud or not understanding the new system etc - been a number of derogatory comments towards people who just want to play the game the way they want too

And what’s good about the WHS is it allows people the choice to do what they want - card ever time , card during comps , or never putting a card in. Some on the thread need to respect the wishes of how others want to play the game and realise that everyone is different

 

[Swango1980]

I believe so - some have their own HC system for their own comps etc

But I think the message is - not everyone plays the sport for the same reason

Some don’t care about their handicap , some don’t care about comps. We have members that don’t even have a HC and some that haven’t been updated in years

People need to see that there are many people that don’t want to put their card in every time they play , they have no interest in it and just want to enjoy the game

It’s nothing to do with resisting change , or being stuck in the mud or not understanding the new system etc - been a number of derogatory comments towards people who just want to play the game the way they want too

And what’s good about the WHS is it allows people the choice to do what they want - card ever time , card during comps , or never putting a card in. Some on the thread need to respect the wishes of how others want to play the game and realise that everyone is different

I agree. We have 500+ members, but at least 200 who have no handicap at all. They just joined, some on a whim and never got into it, others who just like to hit a ball about a course with their mates, nothing more. So, we clearly can't demand they submit their rounds when there is zero interest, and it would be absurd if they, for some reason did hand in 3 cards to get a handicap (just to see what it may be), then we suddenly demand they submit all their scores from now on.

Thankfully, we are not there and it is purely up to the individual golfer. And I do not see why there should be any pressure on anyone submitting general play scores. If a player wants to compete in arranged comps, and those comps have certain conditions for entry, then no doubt they'll submit any scores they may or may not be required to.

 

[Crow]

I wonder what some people would think of places like Swinley Forest or New Zealand GC who have not got any official HCs , they don’t have WHS , any official rating

They just play the course for the enjoyment of the sport - not interested in being ruled by a governing body on how they play the sport

Great, but I have a feeling that my membership application wouldn't be accepted.

 

[backwoodsman]

I wonder what some people would think of places like Swinley Forest or New Zealand GC who have not got any official HCs , they don’t have WHS , any official rating

They just play the course for the enjoyment of the sport - not interested in being ruled by a governing body on how they play the sport

Thats up to them and their choice. Just not for me. Not that they'd let me in anyway.

(Apropos of nothing but interest, I guess they dont play any form of inter-club matches?)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In WHS parlance, "NS" means "not started" (or not played) rather than "no score", and count as net par for handicapping.

"NR" (or dash/zero) is used for holes started but not completed, and count as net double-bogey for handicapping; you can have as many of these as holes played (on a bad day).

Sorry - mixed them up. However as we are not required to submit physical cards what I wrote for another player on a card had no impact. They entered their own scores on the system.

And of course you are right - I can have as many NRs in a s/ford scored round as might happen without that disqualifying my round.

 

[2blue]

Thats up to them and their choice. Just not for me. Not that they'd let me in anyway.

(Apropos of nothing but interest, I guess they dont play any form of inter-club matches?)

Yes... absolutely.
The starter at NZ even boasted that they had preferred lies at all times as they weren't being dictated to by anyone.
Swindley formed in the early 1900's didn't have Si's until the 1990's. & didn't have a Captain's Car parking place when I visited (1st thing you look to avoid when visiting a new club)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I've never understood the antipathy of putting swindle cards in for h/c. Regardless of whether it was pre-covid or post-covid, pre-WHS or post-WHS, our swindle was always played "by the rules and no gimmees" - simply to make it fair to everyone. We still enjoyed ourselves. Only difference now is that you would be (metaphorically) dropping your card in the box, rather than the bin.

Especially in the case of my club when every Saturday any of us playing in the rollup (previously non-Q) could enter the club stableford (Q) run every saturday that we can enter on the day if we want to.

So I often would find myself with three players in the rollup who had also entered the club stableford comp. I would usually also then enter it - but sometimes I chose not to. Those in the rollup and also in the club stableford than had to hole out every putt (unless not scoring) whilst those not in the s/ford could accept gimmes - with the same differentiation applying to any side-4BBB being played.

This all happened as normal - but just imagine trying to explain how it works to a new member - it would feel impossibly complicated...until they got used to it when it then just became straightforward. And that is where I think we are today with WHS.