Handicaps going down under WHS

[wjemather]

Good to hear Farnham are operating well. I've no idea what the view of our handicap committee is we've had no communication in this respect. That either means everything is operating well, or they are not getting involved.

Regardless, I haven't changed my view that they new system is too easy to fiddle.

In fact, I might run a demo for the golf unions where I set up a bogus profile and get a handicap double my real one and see what I can win! Purely in the interest of experiment you understand!

You would just wasting the time of volunteers to prove something that is already known. Any handicap system, like golf itself, relies on the knowledge and integrity of the individual - there is no alternative.

 

[sjn]

Any system can be fiddled - CONGU was easy to fiddle as well if you so decided . But under WHS there is considerably more committee oversight of scoring , and WHS can provide much more data/evidence for them to use.
If your hcap committees (or your regional administrators if you are an elite player ) are doing their job you will get found out pretty quickly if you are manipulating your handicap. Differences between competition results and GP score can be monitored and reported on in WHS. Our region said they adjusted handicaps for a number of very low hcap /elite players based on this at the review last year , and I also know one mid handicap player ( whose handicap was 'suspect' under CONGU with no action taken) who had his handicap suspended for 12 months (so no comps at his club or anywhere else) after WHS date provided the evidence he was fiddling his GP scores.
So Ian M, WHS may give you more scope to move your handicap quickly around dishonestly than congu , but you are much more likely to be found out if you do.

Elite competitions in England do now require at least 16 of the last 20 scores to be competition scores.

 

[IanM]

So Ian M, WHS may give you more scope to move your handicap quickly around dishonestly than congu , but you are much more likely to be found out if you do .

Elite competitions in England do now require at least 16 of the last 20 scores to be competition scores.

1) I wonder if you are more likely to be found out? We all know the capability and resources of handicap committees varies greatly. What I said was hypothetical. But there are now clubs who'll do your handicap for a nominal fee even if your NEVER play there.

2) The directive from England Golf restricting the number of Gen Play scores in Elite Comps seems to support my comment, rather than detract from it.

Anyway, I'm more worried about folk cleaning up swag in handicap Opens. The proper comps are better run. (I hope)

 

[D-S]

Any system can be fiddled - CONGU was easy to fiddle as well if you so decided . But under WHS there is considerably more committee oversight of scoring , and WHS can provide much more data/evidence for them to use.
If your hcap committees (or your regional administrators if you are an elite player ) are doing their job you will get found out pretty quickly if you are manipulating your handicap. Differences between competition results and GP score can be monitored and reported on in WHS. Our region said they adjusted handicaps for a number of very low hcap /elite players based on this at the review last year , and I also know one mid handicap player ( whose handicap was 'suspect' under CONGU with no action taken) who had his handicap suspended for 12 months (so no comps at his club or anywhere else) after WHS date provided the evidence he was fiddling his GP scores.
So Ian M, WHS may give you more scope to move your handicap quickly around dishonestly than congu , but you are much more likely to be found out if you do.

Elite competitions in England do now require at least 16 of the last 20 scores to be competition scores.

All of this is of course true. The sad fact, however, is that not all handicap committees perform their role correctly or diligently. It is difficult to assess the proportion of committees that are effective but I would hazard a guess at about half.

 

[rulefan]

In addition to incompetent, non-existent or otherwise dysfunctional handicap committees, one problem has been that the validation of gp scores has been neglected by some front-end score entry apps. I have got this impression from the many comments on this and other forums but gather the situation is now improving. I have no direct experience of the problem at my club because a) the committee is red hot on gp verification and b) all 'home' scores are entered via a PC psi system and physical cards are still signed and 'in the box'. 'Away' score cards are given to the office whether an app has been used or not. Members are very supportive of the process, presumably having seen the potential for manipulation.

 

[wjemather]

Elite competitions in England do now require at least 16 of the last 20 scores to be competition scores.

This is a slight distortion of the policy, which states:
"Note: As authorised under 7.9 of the England Golf General Conditions an entry may be refused if, in the opinion of the Championship Committee, a players Handicap Index is not reflective of their playing ability. This decision may be based on but is not limited to: (a) a handicap record (most recent 20 scores) that contains more than 4 (four) General Play scores, (b) an incomplete handicap record where fewer than 20 scores have been returned." (emphasis mine)
The record of players with more than 4 GP scores is analysed and entry denied if there is a differential of more than 2 strokes between competition and general play.

I assume further analysis is done to ensure the GP average isn't also being manipulated (to be within tolerance), but the policy doesn't mention this. IMO, the policy does more to highlight failing committees than it does unscrupulous players.

 

[IanM]

Absolutely spot on.

Committees need the resources and competence to police. Too many vagaries and varisation of process.

Mind you. The first issue is as old as the handicapping system!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In addition to incompetent, non-existent or otherwise dysfunctional handicap committees, one problem has been that the validation of gp scores has been neglected by some front-end score entry apps. I have got this impression from the many comments on this and other forums but gather the situation is now improving. I have no direct experience of the problem at my club because a) the committee is red hot on gp verification and b) all 'home' scores are entered via a PC psi system and physical cards are still signed and 'in the box'. 'Away' score cards are given to the office whether an app has been used or not. Members are very supportive of the process, presumably having seen the potential for manipulation.

We had been notified that some members were having away round validation issues with the app, and as a result the club had temporarily suspended acceptance of away scores submitted using the app. They can still be submitted to the office and home rounds are direct terminal input. It only seems to happen away from home… Don’t know if it’s been resolved…haven’t seen any comms to that effect. I suspect the handicap committee maybe suspect something going on.

 

[HeftyHacker]

We had been notified that some members were having away round validation issues with the app, and as a result the club had temporarily suspended acceptance of away scores submitted using the app. They can still be submitted to the office and home rounds are direct terminal input. It only seems to happen away from home… Don’t know if it’s been resolved…haven’t seen any comms to that effect. I suspect the handicap committee maybe suspect something going on.

What app are you referring to? The MyEG app?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What app are you referring to? The MyEG app?

Yes

 

[HeftyHacker]

Yes

I didn't realise there was any involvement from the club when scores were entered through the MyEG app, home or away?

 

[D-S]

I don’t think you can prevent members using the EG App, there would be issues I assume if the player appealed to the County.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I didn't realise there was any involvement from the club when scores were entered through the MyEG app, home or away?

I don’t know that there is…but the club seems to be able to do certain things to any such round and the implication from the comm we got was that we were able to do something given issues being pointed out. Maybe we have just advised members to not use the app for recording ‘away’ rounds. I honestly don’t know. But I will check.

 

[Backsticks]

We had been notified that some members were having away round validation issues with the app, and as a result the club had temporarily suspended acceptance of away scores submitted using the app. They can still be submitted to the office and home rounds are direct terminal input. It only seems to happen away from home… Don’t know if it’s been resolved…haven’t seen any comms to that effect. I suspect the handicap committee maybe suspect something going on.

Can the club do that ? Their obligation is to implement WhS and EG handicap system for subscribed golfers. If they have issues with some golfers, surely they must deal with those golfers exclusively. Not take the law into their own hands, effectively changing the hc protocol for all their members, and thus not providing the handicap process they have subscribed the club to.

 

[rulefan]

Can the club do that ? Their obligation is to implement WhS and EG handicap system for subscribed golfers. If they have issues with some golfers, surely they must deal with those golfers exclusively. Not take the law into their own hands, effectively changing the hc protocol for all their members, and thus not providing the handicap process they have subscribed the club to.

Does Appendix A2((vii) not provide that authority?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Can the club do that ? Their obligation is to implement WhS and EG handicap system for subscribed golfers. If they have issues with some golfers, surely they must deal with those golfers exclusively. Not take the law into their own hands, effectively changing the hc protocol for all their members, and thus not providing the handicap process they have subscribed the club to.

The handicap process has not changed. Simply that for any ’away’ round a signed card should be submitted to the club for entry into WHS - entry of the round using the app was temporarily suspended pending investigation and clarification from England Golf. The issue of attestation failing seemed to only be an issue away from home as rounds are entered and attested successfully at home.

 

[D-S]

Does Appendix A2((vii) not provide that authority?

Isn’t that just about communicating procedures, not allowing or disallowing entry methods?

 

[Backsticks]

Does Appendix A2((vii) not provide that authority?

I dont know tbh. I would have thought its OK if a systemic technical fault. But not as a blanket block of particular suspect cases. To be fair, I take that they suspect a technical fault, so OK until that is fixed.

 

[rulefan]

Isn’t that just about communicating procedures, not allowing or disallowing entry methods?

I took it to be specifying entry methods much as 2.1a(iii) - According to the .......... Handicap Committee and/or ...

But the WHS doesn't specify any apps, ISVs, PSI or PC methods or providers so it must be down to the club.

 

[D-S]

I took it to be specifying entry methods much as 2.1a(iii) - According to the .......... Handicap Committee and/or ...

But the WHS doesn't specify any apps, ISVs, PSI or PC methods or providers so it must be down to the club.

I see what you mean - I will check with EG.