Rollups, Swindles, WHS

[Ser Shankalot]

I do not have an official handicap yet nor a member of a club, so am undoubtedly missing a whole lot of nuance in this debate. Apologies in advance if so.

But reading this thread, does it not come down to letting people play the game and do with their own data whatever they want? Obviously more comprehensive and up date the data is, the more accurate the analysis and measurement - that's true of anything. But nobody is forced to take part in a private centralized testing and measuring survey in any other form of life - not even Google or Facebook can force us to share data so they can track our activities over time anymore. So just like any other part of life, shouldn't this be up to the individual? Whether one agrees with someone's reason to participate or decline, it seems unfair to force them to share data on everyday golf.

If it's about the sanctity of competitions, can't there be some other way (even if imperfect) of getting better handicap data rather than a Big Brother approach? Maybe something like saying minimum number of cards have had to be entered over preceding months, etc to ensure handicap is up to date if they want to enter?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I believe so - some have their own HC system for their own comps etc

But I think the message is - not everyone plays the sport for the same reason

Some don’t care about their handicap , some don’t care about comps. We have members that don’t even have a HC and some that haven’t been updated in years

People need to see that there are many people that don’t want to put their card in every time they play , they have no interest in it and just want to enjoy the game

It’s nothing to do with resisting change , or being stuck in the mud or not understanding the new system etc - been a number of derogatory comments towards people who just want to play the game the way they want too

And what’s good about the WHS is it allows people the choice to do what they want - card ever time , card during comps , or never putting a card in. Some on the thread need to respect the wishes of how others want to play the game and realise that everyone is different

And as you say - with WHS this is the case. There seems to be some idea propagating out there that we can't play golf without us having to submit a card for WHS handicapping purposes - and - again as you say - this is arrant nonsense. Those who perpetrate and perpetuate any such idea are either confused by what is required of them - or are being deliberately bloody-minded in spreading their misinformation.

I will go out later. I may well join up with others. We will not have to keep and submit a card. We can have as messy, joshing and fun a knock as we wish. Tomorrow I play in a board comp - that card will count towards by HI. On Sunday I play next round match of club summer singles K/O comp - I won't have to submit any sort of card for that.

So what's my thinking. I know from my handicap record that my next WHS Q-round I will lose a 6.7 diff. So I know right now that for me to maintain my HI I need to score no worse than 8 over gross tomorrow. If I have a disaster then my next counting score will add about 0.45 to my HI and my CH will go up for my match on Sunday

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I don't know if this debate has got the two "camps" actually arguing at cross purposes here.
At times I get the impression that some are advocating that all rounds should be submitted for whs purposes; I.e. every time you go to play a game of golf.
Then It seems at other times that the advocates of submitting cards to whs are really talking about any "competition " (e.g roll up) involving some sort of result, I.e winner etc.

I cannot see any possibility of a round being accepted for whs/handicap unless that round is played to the full rules of golf.
And if a round is so played, called a roll up or swindle or whatever, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be submitted for whs handicap purposes.

(Any round or "competition " played to other rules cannot be used for handicap calculation, can it?)

But that is a million miles from expecting someone to play to the full rules of golf every time they "take to the Course"
Friendlies with gimmes; rounds finished at 12 holes, say, on a whim.
Relaxed rounds with mulligans or whatever.
These sorts of games of golf are played by many, every day. I played one yesterday with my mate. We were knackered and fancied a beer when on the 12 th , so walked in. Knowing that was what was likely to happen( desired to happen?) when we set off, is it being argued that such a round should now not be played?
Can't believe anyone is advocating that.

So, have we not been at cross purposes??

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Anyone that has played high level golf will understand the difference between competitive and social golf.

 

[SammmeBee]

Anyone that has played high level golf will understand the difference between competitive and social golf.

And both have their place and are quite different. Roll ups are not real competitive golf - they are just a fun thing.....

 

[IanM]

.....and everyone is entitled to their preference, and each has it's place.

What winds me up is the sheer arrogance of a section of administrator types who appear to trying to destroy that distinction.

Its a bit like telling a group having a kick about in the park, that they cannot unless a properly marked pitch is used and qualified referee is present.

 

[Slab]

I don't really have a dog in this pit, but could someone post the difference between a weekly stableford comp and a weekly stableford swindle /roll up?

 

[IanM]

Nowt, if it is designated as a competition, where folk are competing for the pot of entry fees. (Others are welcome to a different view, but there is no need to force it on me)

Its the distinction between handicap qualifying golf, and social golf that's been kicked around. And different clubs use the terms roll up, swindle etc differently.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I don't really have a dog in this pit, but could someone post the difference between a weekly stableford comp and a weekly stableford swindle /roll up?

A weekly stableford comp will be organised by the club and will be played under qualifying conditions and rules of golf

A swindle Stableford will be organised by a bunch of mates , they will have their own rules , gimmies , preferred lies etc etc

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Anyone that has played high level golf will understand the difference between competitive and social golf.

Of course they will, but you will also recognise how competitive some people get when supposedly playing a social round.

 

[IanM]

Of course they will, but you will also recognise how competitive some people get when supposedly playing a social round.

My mate playing for 20p skins gets very competitive. But he is from Barnsley!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

My mate playing for 20p skins gets very competitive. But he is from Barnsley!

Being from Barnsley explains it.

 

[Old Skier]

Social golf is social golf, end of. I attend county meetings where this has been discussed with our EG reps and they have no problem with it. The confusion came a couple of years ago when the EG handicap mister suggested that all cards should count but that withered on the vine.

Its up to clubs how they organise their comps.

My only gripe is with our Friday swindle group who said they didn’t want cards to count and now I have members from the same group complaining about the scores some are achieving and asking why those cards don’t count.

Play your social golf, enjoy it but then don’t moan about other people’s scores.

 

[IanM]

That's a great point. When I started playing it was impressed on me that and properly scored non competition card where you beat your handicap, "should be put in."

If folk are winning lots of cash in swindle, the handicap sec used to hear about it

 

[Old Skier]

That's a great point. When I started playing it was impressed on me that and properly scored non competition card where you beat your handicap, "should be put in."

If folk are winning lots of cash in swindle, the handicap sec used to hear about it

With me it’s ALL cards from the swindle or non. To many people think that because you win you should get cut not actually taking scores into account.

 

[clubchamp98]

I wonder what some people would think of places like Swinley Forest or New Zealand GC who have not got any official HCs , they don’t have WHS , any official rating

They just play the course for the enjoyment of the sport - not interested in being ruled by a governing body on how they play the sport

I didn’t know that.
Sounds good , because I can’t remember the last time I played an international match where my handicap would need to travel worldwide.
Social golf is just what it says and trying to force people to put every card in is just wrong imo.

 

[IanM]

With me it’s ALL cards from the swindle or non. To many people think that because you win you should get cut not actually taking scores into account.

I'm relaxed about the arrangements are as long as they are understood and consistent.

But I was disproportionately miffed by some views expressed yesterday. I should not have bothered engaging with them.

 

[Slab]

A weekly stableford comp will be organised by the club and will be played under qualifying conditions and rules of golf

A swindle Stableford will be organised by a bunch of mates , they will have their own rules , gimmies , preferred lies etc etc

So you're saying they're fundamentaly the same then

Both games are organised & both are played to a set of rules?
(If the rules were the same it'd be kinda tough to separate them in a line-up, to the casual observer) especially if an 'entry fee' and prizes of any kind are involved, jeez a roll-up may well involve one or more comp committee members taking part!

I don't think a status of 'mates' being involved has any bearing though, otherwise it could mean if everyone in a club stableford comp were 'mates' it could then be a roll-up.
Yes that's silly but illustrates the point

I don't see anything wrong in roll-up players being encouraged to submit scores when the roll-up rules of play permit, can't really do any harm and no one has a 3 iron to their heads if they prefer to play a practice game or just stick to the the groups made up rules

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So you're saying they're fundamentaly the same then

Both games are organised & both are played to a set of rules?
(If the rules were the same it'd be kinda tough to separate them in a line-up, to the casual observer) especially if an 'entry fee' and prizes of any kind are involved, jeez a roll-up may well involve one or more comp committee members taking part!

I don't think a status of 'mates' being involved has any bearing though, otherwise it could mean if everyone in a club stableford comp were 'mates' it could then be a roll-up.
Yes that's silly but illustrates the point

I don't see anything wrong in roll-up players being encouraged to submit scores when the roll-up rules of play permit, can't really do any harm and no one has a 3 iron to their heads if they prefer to play a practice game or just stick to the the groups made up rules

I don’t see anything new that’s already been said

If someone wants to put in a card from a swindle and plays to the full rules they can if they wish ?‍

In social organised games - the option is there.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Of course they will, but you will also recognise how competitive some people get when supposedly playing a social round.

That's fine, they can submit their cards if that's what they want to do but they shouldn't try to force everyone to do the same.