Rollups, Swindles, WHS

[Deleted member 15344]

Some people have commented (in this thread and others) that the rules of their organised rollup/swindle have been/will be changed with the stated intention of avoiding the requirement submit scores.

when the club is “forcing” them to enter their scores from the swindle - which I believe is not the correct process as clubs cant force people to enter cards so to combat the club forcing people will play gimmies ( we always have done anyway and most clubs have ) - best 3 from 4 , 4BBB - and the reason why they do that - for the enjoyment of their swindle members

Because that’s why we play the game - enjoyment , not to put in as many handicap cards as possible but for enjoyment.

And that’s also why the UK will not imo go down the route of all cards must count - it was muted from the start and it was dismissed pretty quickly. So it’s irrelevant what the USGA do or have done

 

[IanM]

CONGU (EG) have been very clear on what scores should be considered pre-registered. It is a shame that some people just have difficulty accepting that (and WHS in general), possibly because they cannot detach the notion of handicapping from formal competitions.

As noted countless times, there are currently many options that make scores unacceptable for handicapping (gimmies, advice, mulligans, playing formats, etc.) if people are truly desperate to avoid submitting cards, although it is likely that some of those options will be removed with the adoption of Most Likely Score (MLS) and additional playing formats (e.g. 4BBB) in the near future. Players under the USGA's jurisdiction have coped just fine with submitting all their scores for years - I see no reason why we can't manage equally well.

It's not a question of folk being desperate to avoid submitting cards, it is the fact that many see "comps" and "social rounds" as separate. In a comp, strict rules, everything else, maybe gimmies, (but never mulligans etc) and it's called "FUN" and "PRACTICE!" ...and any score is taken less seriously than a competition. It also takes 30 mins off a 4 ball!

I have played in America lots of times and the comical thing about it has often been getting paired with a "low single figure player" who, it is quite obvious, is incapable of breaking 90. So, I wonder what they have been doing so successfully under the USGA System??

I have taken it that I have the option to "submit my card" and if so, tell them in the shop beforehand that I am doing so. I am playing in a Soc at Camberley Heath next week... it doesn't appear I can enter my card as the Wales Golf App won't pick up any English Courses yet! (So that nobbles that even if I wanted to.)

I might nip out for 9 holes with my wife after work tonight, can someone give me the number of the R&A, so they can send a referee to adjudicate and record our scores?

Because that’s why we play the game - enjoyment

How dare you sir!!!! It is nothing of the kind!

 

[BiMGuy]

Because that’s why we play the game - enjoyment.

Absolute nonsense!

Have you not read any other thread on this forum? Most people play for no other reason, than to be annoyed and get themselves worked up over minor breaches of etiquette they have made up in their own heads. ?

 

[wjemather]

when the club is “forcing” them to enter their scores from the swindle - which I believe is not the correct process as clubs cant force people to enter cards so to combat the club forcing people will play gimmies ( we always have done anyway and most clubs have ) - best 3 from 4 , 4BBB - and the reason why they do that - for the enjoyment of their swindle members

Because that’s why we play the game - enjoyment , not to put in as many handicap cards as possible but for enjoyment.

And that’s also why the UK will not imo go down the route of all cards must count - it was muted from the start and it was dismissed pretty quickly. So it’s irrelevant what the USGA do or have done

Very emotive language. And nonsense of course, since no-one is being "forced" to do anything.

There is no logical reason why putting a score in should affect anyone's enjoyment. People just need to let their handicap happen and not obsess about it - look it up, play with it, put your score in; same again tomorrow.

It's not a question of folk being desperate to avoid submitting cards, it is the fact that many see "comps" and "social rounds" as separate. In a comp, strict rules, everything else, maybe gimmies, (but never mulligans etc) and it's called "FUN" and "PRACTICE!" ...and any score is taken less seriously than a competition. It also takes 30 mins off a 4 ball!

This illustrates my point. The conflation of handicaps and competitions is no doubt one of the legacies of a system that focused almost exclusively on formal competition golf and had restrictions on non-competition scores. It a culture change that will take time.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Very emotive language. And nonsense of course, since no-one is being "forced" to do anything.

There is no logical reason why putting a score in should affect anyone's enjoyment. People just need to let their handicap happen and not obsess about it - look it up, play with it, put your score in; same again tomorrow.


This illustrates my point. The conflation of handicaps and competitions is no doubt one of the legacies of a system that focused almost exclusively on formal competition golf and had restrictions on non-competition scores. It a culture change that will take time.

One poster has already stated that the club have stated their swindles must put their scores in - is that not forced ?

Just because you can’t see any logical reason why peoples enjoyment changes with a card in their hand doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

 

[wjemather]

One poster has already stated that the club have stated their swindles must put their scores in - is that not forced ?

Given the groups affected have many options of how to proceed, all of which are their choice and only one of which involves submitting scores... no.

 

[IanM]

This illustrates my point. The conflation of handicaps and competitions is no doubt one of the legacies of a system that focused almost exclusively on formal competition golf and had restrictions on non-competition scores. It a culture change that will take time.

Agreed. Culture change takes time and management by competent people. I wonder how many of the WHS Implementation team were appropriately qualified in the discipline of managing cultural change?

I wonder who asked for this change? (meaning the formal competition / non comp score bit) I guess a detailed survey of club golfers was undertaken and the results are available for inspection? No? I thought not!

 

[rulefan]

Neither WHS nor the EG are forcing anyone to to anything about casual play scores. It's all down to club committees and players. If you don't want to, don't.

 

[2blue]

I have taken it that I have the option to "submit my card" and if so, tell them in the shop beforehand that I am doing so. I am playing in a Soc at Camberley Heath next week... it doesn't appear I can enter my card as the Wales Golf App won't pick up any English Courses yet! (So that nobbles that even if I wanted to.)

Where there's a will there's usually a way....... so......
Speak to the Pro at Camberly to see if you can use their PSI or if not will he process it for you?
OR...... Simply email your H/cap Sec saying you're submitting it then email him an image of your card....... it was what we did a couple of weeks ago when playing Conwy & that score is now one of my best 8.
Like our fondly remembered Rick G, I'm not someone who is 'precious' about my H/cap but am happy for it to reflect my game at home, away & in all sorts of playing conditions....... it's the modern way & time the 'stick-in-the-muds' gave their heads a shake.

 

[rosecott]

Scottish Golf said from the start that for a score to be acceptable for handicap it had to be "during an active season".

Nothing to stop people punching in scores all winter via SG app however, but that's not what Scottish Golf intended.

From CONGU:

Active and Inactive seasons are not implemented in GB&I.

 

[IanM]

Where there's a will there's usually a way....... so......

Good advice. First away game of the year so we'll test the options!

Even though it is a Society, it's a "pencil in back pocket" and proper rules game, so should go in. (if systems and processes permit) Historically, if I beat my handicap in these, I put the card in. (old school manners!)

I am not bothered if the WHS Nazis think I should enter a score for chipping balls into a upturned umbrella in the garden!

 

[2blue]

Good advice. First away game of the year so we'll test the options!

Even though it is a Society, it's a "pencil in back pocket" and proper rules game, so should go in. (if systems and processes permit) Historically, if I beat my handicap in these, I put the card in. (old school manners!)

I am not bothered if the WHS Nazis think I should enter a score for chipping balls into a upturned umbrella in the garden!

...... there's always lots of mulligans available.

 

[jim8flog]

From CONGU:

Active and Inactive seasons are not implemented in GB&I.

Full wording and reference for those interested

Guidance on the Rules of Handicapping

Definitions
World Handicap System GDef/1 Active and Inactive Seasons

Active and Inactive seasons are not implemented in GB&I. Golf should be played throughout the year; although for many clubs the course setup may mean that, in winter, scores will not be acceptable for handicap purposes. However, it is expected that all clubs will endeavour to encourage players to return acceptable scores throughout the year where possible.

 

[ger147]

And from Scottish Golf...

https://scottishgolf.org/handicapping-homepage/general-play-scores/

 

[woofers]

And from Scottish Golf...

https://scottishgolf.org/handicapping-homepage/general-play-scores/

Terrific ! So do Scottishgolf believe they override CONGU?
And where does one find the definition of an ‘active season‘ please ?

 

[ger147]

Terrific ! So do Scottishgolf believe they override CONGU?
And where does one find the definition of an ‘active season‘ please ?

You would have to ask SG that, I'm just a lowly golfer who happens to live and play golf in Scotland.

 

[Bigfoot]

Full wording and reference for those interested

Guidance on the Rules of Handicapping

Definitions
World Handicap System GDef/1 Active and Inactive Seasons

Active and Inactive seasons are not implemented in GB&I. Golf should be played throughout the year; although for many clubs the course setup may mean that, in winter, scores will not be acceptable for handicap purposes. However, it is expected that all clubs will endeavour to encourage players to return acceptable scores throughout the year where possible.

I noticed on the EG app, that at Enville , we now have a slope for a winter version of each course - so they are expecting some cards through winter.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Played in our Thursday Rollup today. With tee times reserved and blocked out; four balls drawn yesterday, and scores returned through IG, this is one of the rollups my club has decided it would like to have as a WHS qualifying round. My four played the rollup singles stableford and alongside we had a friendly side 4BBB match.

Obviously we had to hole out as often as possible (where we couldn’t score we picked up and wrote in No Score for the hole, which is OK as long as we don’t do more than eight NSs in a round) and we couldnt do gimmes. This didn’t take anything from the enjoyment of our little 4BBB match.

In fact I myself focussed more on the 4BBB match more than my single s/Ford score so didn’t stress at all over having a card in my hand (though did stress a bit at some of my rubbish golf), and I didnt feel that having to tap in putts that would have been gimmes extended the round any more than had we to look for a couple more balls on the way round. In fact we were under 4hrs which is good for a Thursday roll up 4 ball round.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Where there's a will there's usually a way....... so......
Speak to the Pro at Camberly to see if you can use their PSI or if not will he process it for you?
OR...... Simply email your H/cap Sec saying you're submitting it then email him an image of your card....... it was what we did a couple of weeks ago when playing Conwy & that score is now one of my best 8.
Like our fondly remembered Rick G, I'm not someone who is 'precious' about my H/cap but am happy for it to reflect my game at home, away & in all sorts of playing conditions....... it's the modern way & time the 'stick-in-the-muds' gave their heads a shake.

I am getting a little fed up with you throwing insults about . You do not seem to have the grace to allow some to play golf ( for enjoyment) without you requiring them to submit their score for handicap purposes. If they do not wish to, and they have given good and valid reasons why they may wish not to, you feel justified in throwing names at them e.g. "stick in the muds" and other previous name callings.
You also demand that some of their reasons for not submitting, I.e not using e mail and smart phones , is not acceptable. They SHOULD use these methods , you say, and if they are not readily useable by them then no doubt they deserve to be called some other names.

Why you cannot allow other people to play this game in a manner and with emphases other than how you want to see it played , I have no idea.
But it is something perhaps you should examine as to whether it is fair minded .

 

[wjemather]

Obviously we had to hole out as often as possible (where we couldn’t score we picked up and wrote in No Score for the hole, which is OK as long as we don’t do more than eight NSs in a round) and we couldnt do gimmes.

In WHS parlance, "NS" means "not started" (or not played) rather than "no score", and count as net par for handicapping.

"NR" (or dash/zero) is used for holes started but not completed, and count as net double-bogey for handicapping; you can have as many of these as holes played (on a bad day).