Rollups, Swindles, WHS

[jim8flog]

One of the things I would object to is that virtually every swindle I play in plays off the shorter yellow tees and not the white tees* and I really would not want a handicap that is largely based upon shorter tees. Whilst I accept that Course Rating does make some difference it is not enough from a handicap point of view in my opinion.

Various suggestions have been made about playing off whites but the majority want to play off yellows. One group does want cards put in every time but some of us said no because they want to play off yellows still. (Most them only play in Seniors comps which are mainly off the yellows).

 

[jim8flog]

Lots of us are new at my place and haven't had handicaps before. We're the dreaded high-handicappers discussed on other threads - normally going around in 100 but getting the occasional 90 when it matters.
We're keeping cards and scoring on the EG on most of our social rounds, just so we can establish our "working" handicaps, but looking forward to a year or 2 when it's stable and we can just rock up for social games of friendly matchplay, without having to worry about marking the occasional 8 or 9 that's inevitable for our skill level and screws up an otherwise decent card.

But 8s and 9s are the same as 7s for handicap purposes where you only get one shot on a hole.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

None-sense.... any H/cap Team/Sec worth their salt, would be on to you & having a quiet word just as Jim already does for those who fail to return cards from Comps & casual rounds. Players & Clubs should either follow the rules or exit the WHS....... it doesn't cater for the if's & buts that so many of the 'old-school' want to persist with. I can't believe just how many 'old cogger' thinkers we've got just waiting to step into the shoes of those unspeakables holding golf back.

So I have to treat EVERY round as a competitive round then even if I just want to mess about with my mates?

 

[clubchamp98]

So I have to treat EVERY round as a competitive round then even if I just want to mess about with my mates?

Think it’s a wind up now.
I like to hit two drives off the tee / chip and putt around the green as practice.
so you would find players wanting to play solo so they could.
Card in hand for EVERY round for the rest of my life. No thanks.

Lots of golfers are not interested in comps / handicaps , and just want to play social golf with their friends.

 

[ForeRight]

As a matter of interest, how many of the posters advocating that other players post general play cards in swindles etc used to put in a supplememntary every time they played pre-WHS. (Excluding old Cat 1 players obviously).

I hear this argument a lot from members at my club yet they never used to put Supplementary scores in the old days.

Just asking.

 

[SteveJay]

None-sense.... any H/cap Team/Sec worth their salt, would be on to you & having a quiet word just as Jim already does for those who fail to return cards from Comps & casual rounds. Players & Clubs should either follow the rules or exit the WHS....... it doesn't cater for the if's & buts that so many of the 'old-school' want to persist with. I can't believe just how many 'old cogger' thinkers we've got just waiting to step into the shoes of those unspeakables holding golf back.

 

[RichA]

But 8s and 9s are the same as 7s for handicap purposes where you only get one shot on a hole.

Sorry - you missed my point. I'm talking about when we have stable handicaps and don't feel the need to stick a card in every time we play a social round, to get a decent number of scores on the system. The golf will become more for fun.
If you don't get it, it's because you've been a good golfer with what I would consider a low handicap for a long time. The newer guys who know they can shoot 80s but keep hitting 100s will know what I'm talking about.

 

[Bigfoot]

I can see why some want all cards counting but I have no intention putting any card in if the course has just had work done on the greens. A catch all rule to put cards in needs some thought of all scenarios.

 

[clubchamp98]

As a matter of interest, how many of the posters advocating that other players post general play cards in swindles etc used to put in a supplememntary every time they played pre-WHS. (Excluding old Cat 1 players obviously).

I hear this argument a lot from members at my club yet they never used to put Supplementary scores in the old days.

Just asking.

Yes I have been playing over 35 yrs and have honestly never come across anyone who has put a supplementary card in.

 

[2blue]

As a matter of interest, how many of the posters advocating that other players post general play cards in swindles etc used to put in a supplememntary every time they played pre-WHS. (Excluding old Cat 1 players obviously).

I hear this argument a lot from members at my club yet they never used to put Supplementary scores in the old days.

Just asking.

Rather pointless question is that as you & your 'likers' don't appear to be up to speed....... there's been big changes recently you know.
With CONGU I found that the 70 to 80 Q rounds a year I played pretty much enough. How many did you return?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Rather pointless question is that as you & your 'likers' don't appear to be up to speed....... there's been big changes recently you know.
With CONGU I found that the 70 to 80 Q rounds a year I played pretty much enough. How many did you return?

Everyone is up to speed

Can you show where it was decided that all scores must be submitted ?

And it wasn’t a pointless question.

The only time a score card must be submitted for HC purposes is during official club qualfiying comps or for initial handicaps

Outside of those each player has the choice of what they wish to do - you appear to be struggling with that concept

 

[abjectplop]

When did that start, we entered gp scores all winter

Scottish Golf said from the start that for a score to be acceptable for handicap it had to be "during an active season".

Nothing to stop people punching in scores all winter via SG app however, but that's not what Scottish Golf intended.

 

[clubchamp98]

Scottish Golf said from the start that for a score to be acceptable for handicap it had to be "during an active season".

Nothing to stop people punching in scores all winter via SG app however, but that's not what Scottish Golf intended.

This is where I am struggling with WHS .
It’s not even the same rules in the UK never mind the rest of the World.
There seems to be a lot of different models.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

We have one regular group of roll-up players who regularly put their scores in as General Play scores. The roll-up is well managed and the cards returned after being loaded by the individuals into the club system. It's not mandatory for all players to submit cards but the majority do. The nett effect is that this group's HI now reflect their playing ability whereas before they had "Roll-up Handicaps" so the event was competitive. Many are 5 day members - hence they get 1 chance per week to play in a competition. This gives them additional opportunities to post scores. They take it seriously and have always demanded no gimmes - they additional time for everyone to putt out is minimal (they tell me). It's stableford based so blobs are still a part of everyday life.

Does everyone submit cards - of course not - but increasingly many do. We are now over 200 general play rounds per month and growing.

A final thought - players can now use the England Golf App to enter General Play rounds at your course as well as any away course. These could be individual rounds or societies - not talking about county events etc. When entered successfully the score goes straight to WHS after being "attested to". What control does your handicap committee have over these scores?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What about elite players messing about with their mates? They don't want to submit an 85 as it could affect their entry into top level events.

If an elite player submits an 85 it is highly likely to be a complete aberration and therefore, as an outlier in his handicap record, very unlikely to ever make any impact on his HI.

As far as rollups - my club has decided that they will be WHS counting. And that’s it - as that is what WHS encourages clubs to do. That does not stop us changing our playing format to make it so that it does not fit the criteria for a WHS qualifier...which we will do at least once a month.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

why? what difference does it make if the card goes in or not

Come on, are you demanding now that every social game of golf a player plays with a mate has to be one where rules of golf always apply and every hole is putted out?
I often play with a mate , and we are relaxed to the point of sometimes
a)seeing if this shot works, not caring if it does or not,
b) playing a mulligan cos the first wasn't struck quite right, etc -( being careful not to hold up play etc )
Things like that. Might not even play the full 18, etc

Are you now saying that whs doesn't like that , that it wants full rounds properly scored and submitted, that it is how we must now play our golf?

Hopefully your recent posts have been talking about swindles , i.e. Relaxed competition, and not what I have described above. Even then, I don't see why swindles cannot be relaxed.
If you are talking about all rounds of golf played , then whs. can do one.

I play primarily for my pleasure , not to please a whs computer.

 

[woofers]

From the CONGU guidance on WHS:
WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll- ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs.

I would suggest that regular organised swindles, with prize money, fall under the guidance. Social games played for who buys the beers, do not.

 

[2blue]

From the CONGU guidance on WHS:
WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll- ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs.

I would suggest that regular organised swindles, with prize money, fall under the guidance. Social games played for who buys the beers, do not.

Absolutely
Sadly the 'old cogger' in every Club, attitude continues to blight our game.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

If an elite player submits an 85 it is highly likely to be a complete aberration and therefore, as an outlier in his handicap record, very unlikely to ever make any impact on his HI.

As far as rollups - my club has decided that they will be WHS counting. And that’s it - as that is what WHS encourages clubs to do. That does not stop us changing our playing format to make it so that it does not fit the criteria for a WHS qualifier...which we will do at least once a month.

I agree, 1 bad card won't make a difference but if that elite player submits a couple of 'mucking about' cards a week it soon will affect his handicap.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Absolutely
Sadly the 'old cogger' in every Club, attitude continues to blight our game.

More made up nonsense. What 'old cogger' attitudes are you on about?