Rollups, Swindles, WHS

[Deleted member 15344]

I said earlier that I think gimmees should be allowed for a WHS card. People get precious about their handicap, hence the qualifying rounds and trying to make buffer etc, when they really should acccept that the WHS is there to more accurately reflect current form and scoring ability. Not to worry about going up a few strokes, as it only reflects current form and not your ultimate ability.

If people got on board with that way of thinking then it is not an issue to put in a card. If you are constantly worried about your handicap, because it is some badge of honour and it hurts your ego to be put up a shot then I understand why you would be against the system. But it isn't a small change to the way handicaps are calculated, it is a complete overhaul to what a handicap is and how it works

But gimmies aren’t allowed and rightly so - any card that goes towards Handicap should involve the ball going in the hole not being given from any length

It’s nothing to do with being “precious” about handicap it’s about playing in a relaxed environment with friends without any competition beyond anything agreed , picking the ball up if they wish etc , some have there own pick and place or drops etc etc

Just read through the threads about the potential “sanctions” of people walking off or not trying their best on each hole etc

90% of us play this game for fun , play it with mates for a laugh and every now and then play in a competition which is a bit more serious

For many if they were forced to put in their card everytime they played in a swindle that would ruin the enjoyment factor as well as affect the pace of play. It’s one of the main reasons why there was such a push back from the old idea of “every round counts”

 

[rulefan]

One poor 'casual/supplementary' score is very unlikely to make any difference to anyone's Index under WHS. However, under CONGU it would produce an automatic 0.1 increase.


But EG only recommend, they haven't mandated. In effect it is a decision made by the 'Swindlers' themselves.

 

[2blue]

Possibly but not everyone thinks that’s an advantage.
Until it’s mandatory and I don’t think that will ever happen.
People will play social golf under their own “ local rules”

And then they want to be taken seriously when entering a H/cap Comp?? As someone said earlier some players are just too precious about their H/cap. As I often heard RickG say " a H/cap is for all weathers, at all times of year & playing in various places".
An attitude that earned him enormous respect. Giving the player the "choice" of which he submits, rather smacks of 'managing' the H/cap. Bit like having a 'hissy fit' & walking off without good reason.... rather immature conduct & shouldnt be tolerated by other grown-ups.

 

[ger147]

And then they want to be taken seriously when entering a H/cap Comp?? As someone said earlier some players are just too precious about their H/cap. As I often heard RickG say " a H/cap is for all weathers, at all times of year & playing in various places".
An attitude that earned him enormous respect. Giving the player the "choice" of which he submits, rather smacks of 'managing' the H/cap. Bit like having a 'hissy fit' & walking off without good reason.... rather immature conduct & shouldnt be tolerated by other grown-ups.

Not in Scotland it's not. We are not allowed to enter General Play Scores outside of the "playing" season i.e. not in Winter. And that is not a decision by players or individual clubs, that is an instruction from Scottish Golf.

 

[SteveJay]

And then they want to be taken seriously when entering a H/cap Comp?? As someone said earlier some players are just too precious about their H/cap. As I often heard RickG say " a H/cap is for all weathers, at all times of year & playing in various places".
An attitude that earned him enormous respect. Giving the player the "choice" of which he submits, rather smacks of 'managing' the H/cap. Bit like having a 'hissy fit' & walking off without good reason.... rather immature conduct & shouldnt be tolerated by other grown-ups.

What a load of tosh.

If you force golfers to play seriously, putting out on every hole, removing any group rules, and making them submit their scores every time, I think a lot of social golfers would give up the game. As mentioned before there is, and always will be, a clear difference between friendly rounds with mates, just hitting balls and enjoying the banter, picking up if you can't win the hole etc. etc. and more serious rounds where scores are properly recorded.

 

[clubchamp98]

And then they want to be taken seriously when entering a H/cap Comp?? As someone said earlier some players are just too precious about their H/cap. As I often heard RickG say " a H/cap is for all weathers, at all times of year & playing in various places".
An attitude that earned him enormous respect. Giving the player the "choice" of which he submits, rather smacks of 'managing' the H/cap. Bit like having a 'hissy fit' & walking off without good reason.... rather immature conduct & shouldnt be tolerated by other grown-ups.

Really.
It’s not mandatory and up to the player.
What’s it got to do with walking off?
Social means exactly that, not card in hand competition.
Our lot use the 90* OOB rule to help play speed.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Do you not have to putt out on any round where the score goes towards the WHS HC ?

Many swindles have 4BBB internal games , ginmies to help keep up pace of pay , sometimes someone can only play 9 holes , etc

Imagine every single round where you have to putt out and the affect that will have on pace of play

People want to have the clear definition between a competition and a social relaxed swindle - and they will treat each separate. Swindles will have their own HCs they use , gimmies , little matches , all about the social aspect of the game

This is our rollup.

I will still give an opponent a very short putt. He then has to tap it in - but as it's always going to be a tap-in that shouldn't take him any time whatsoever. Unfortunately last time out I played with a lad who insisted on marking and then doing his precision lining up for 1ft tap-in putts - after I have given him the putts. As our roll-up rounds didn't previously count towards handicap - it should not matter how bad a final score a player submits these days for a rollup round - in general it won't count - certainly not in the short term.

And even if a poorer rollup round does eventually count as one of eight, such as two tiddlers missed in that round will result in less than a 0.25 increase in the player's HI (for a course with SR of >113)

It's all about the need to change mindset over 'qualifying rounds'. I simply consider rollup rounds as just a round that I chuck into a bucket of 20. If it's one of my best 8 then great - if not then I don't really care what I scored.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

This is our rollup.

I will still give an opponent a very short putt. He then has to tap it in - but as it's always going to be a tap-in that shouldn't take him any time whatsoever. Unfortunately last time out I played with a lad who insisted on marking and then doing his precision lining up for `1ft putts - after I have given him the putt. As our roll-up rounds didn't previously count towards handicap - it should not matter what final score a player submits these days for a rollup round - in general it won't count - certainly not in the short term.

And even if a poorer rollup round does eventually count, such as two tiddlers missed in the round will result in less than a 0.25 increase in the player's HI (for a course with SR of >113)

If they have to knock them in anyway then what is the point of giving them the putt? That seems bizarre.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If they have to knock them in anyway then what is the point of giving them the putt? That seems bizarre.

The point is simply in the context of the friendly 4BBB match - to keep it that in a match I don't expect my opponent to have to hole every putt.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

4BBB should not have to be submitted, as that means no "What club did you use there partner" or "I'll putt first to show you line" or "Even though you are further away partner, I'll play first to put pressure on our opponents", and that's without the 12" gimmies. If 2 or 3 guys rack up and state "Right this is an Handicap submitting card, so strict rules of golf apply" then fair be it, but the choice should be the groups decision before a ball has been hit.

 

[sweaty sock]

Surely a roll up is just a social game, and as such any player can, at their discretion, pre register play to the required rules and submit it for their WHS record. Forcing everyone to do that isnt in the spirit of a roll up, and so in my view it should be up to the individual.

Similarly, if you want to play on a Saturday but not for your handicap, then you just dont enter the comp?

To me WHS is all empowering to the individual player, so people mandating who plays in what and when are overstepping the mark.

If the WHS system is all its purported to be then in time we'll all be handing in general play regularly, but at least give us some time to adapt!!

 

[RichA]

Lots of us are new at my place and haven't had handicaps before. We're the dreaded high-handicappers discussed on other threads - normally going around in 100 but getting the occasional 90 when it matters.
We're keeping cards and scoring on the EG on most of our social rounds, just so we can establish our "working" handicaps, but looking forward to a year or 2 when it's stable and we can just rock up for social games of friendly matchplay, without having to worry about marking the occasional 8 or 9 that's inevitable for our skill level and screws up an otherwise decent card.

 

[2blue]

Lots of us are new at my place and haven't had handicaps before. We're the dreaded high-handicappers discussed on other threads - normally going around in 100 but getting the occasional 90 when it matters.
We're keeping cards and scoring on the EG on most of our social rounds, just so we can establish our "working" handicaps, but looking forward to a year or 2 when it's stable and we can just rock up for social games of friendly matchplay, without having to worry about marking the occasional 8 or 9 that's inevitable for our skill level and screws up an otherwise decent card.

This is it, as we all play the game for a bit of fun & recreation & not to get a 'vanity' H/cap to hang on to whatever.
The game is also a pretty good test of 'character' & resolve so the occasional 8 or 9 should be just an occasional disappointment rather than a reason to flounce from the course like a spoilt child & giving an extremely bad example to the Club's Juniors & new members.
Also Swindles & Roll-ups wouldn't need their own H/cap system if all members submitted cards as well as folk getting accustomed to doing so. The very fact they do indicates that it's not casual/social golf. Yes change is very hard for some to embrace.

 

[r0wly86]

no matter what format I am playing, whether it is just going out by myself, I keep a track of my score, It's no big deal whether I put that one a computer or not. What it will mean is that I have a dip in form then I will have a handicap that is right for me

 

[Steve Wilkes]

no matter what format I am playing, whether it is just going out by myself, I keep a track of my score, It's no big deal whether I put that one a computer or not. What it will mean is that I have a dip in form then I will have a handicap that is right for me

I think the heading for this topic should be - Should we be encouraged to put cards in for Handicap Index whether we have played by the rules or not

 

[Deleted member 15344]

This is it, as we all play the game for a bit of fun & recreation & not to get a 'vanity' H/cap to hang on to whatever.
The game is also a pretty good test of 'character' & resolve so the occasional 8 or 9 should be just an occasional disappointment rather than a reason to flounce from the course like a spoilt child & giving an extremely bad example to the Club's Juniors & new members.
Also Swindles & Roll-ups wouldn't need their own H/cap system if all members submitted cards as well as folk getting accustomed to doing so. The very fact they do indicates that it's not casual/social golf. Yes change is very hard for some to embrace.

Sorry but there is a lot of finger pointing and nonsense being posted and certainly a lot of arrogance in regards the WHS

Let’s dismiss some myths

People play in swindles for fun and enjoyment , they play with their mates and most of the time it’s about maybe the odd side bet and match against others , some may use it for practise , throw down the odd ball , some swindles have their own rules. And of course there are gimmies a plenty which helps the pace of play and at times the rules of golf are ignored , drops etc

They use their own handicap system because they believe it spreads the money evenly amongst all

It’s nothing to do with vanity handicaps , or “flouncing” or struggling with changes

That’s why swindles won’t put their cards in - because it’s a relaxed environment for all

As soon as it’s demanded that cards go in you immediately bring in the competition environment, full rules of golf , no gimmies , the stress that some find , pace of play will increase

There is a place within the sport for both to co exist in perfect harmony without some jumped up rules official pointing fingers at others. The option is there for us all - if people want to put a card in they can , if they don’t then they won’t

 

[AliMc]

Not in Scotland it's not. We are not allowed to enter General Play Scores outside of the "playing" season i.e. not in Winter. And that is not a decision by players or individual clubs, that is an instruction from Scottish Golf.

When did that start, we entered gp scores all winter

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

why? what difference does it make if the card goes in or not

What about elite players messing about with their mates? They don't want to submit an 85 as it could affect their entry into top level events.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

And then they want to be taken seriously when entering a H/cap Comp?? As someone said earlier some players are just too precious about their H/cap. As I often heard RickG say " a H/cap is for all weathers, at all times of year & playing in various places".
An attitude that earned him enormous respect. Giving the player the "choice" of which he submits, rather smacks of 'managing' the H/cap. Bit like having a 'hissy fit' & walking off without good reason.... rather immature conduct & shouldnt be tolerated by other grown-ups.

So from what you are saying I could submit endless crap cards from messing about in swindlers and end up with a handicap way above my ability then use it to clean up in a big competition? ?

 

[2blue]

So from what you are saying I could submit endless crap cards from messing about in swindlers and end up with a handicap way above my ability then use it to clean up in a big competition? ?

None-sense.... any H/cap Team/Sec worth their salt, would be on to you & having a quiet word just as Jim already does for those who fail to return cards from Comps & casual rounds. Players & Clubs should either follow the rules or exit the WHS....... it doesn't cater for the if's & buts that so many of the 'old-school' want to persist with. I can't believe just how many 'old cogger' thinkers we've got just waiting to step into the shoes of those unspeakables holding golf back.