Rollups, Swindles, WHS

[Voyager EMH]

This "ahld gadgie" will be playing in a weekday stableford today. My club has one every week. I will likely play in over 30 handicap qualifying comps this year. I hope to continue playing in roll-ups with gimmies as this is such light relief from qualifiers and such fun. So I will add another spanner in the works. Surely, under the same reasoning, better-ball strokeplay events - should both players be required to putt out every hole and be handicap qualifying? I say no. Just the opinion of an oldie, so worth less? No to that as well, I say.

 

[Jimaroid]

Absolutely
Sadly the 'old cogger' in every Club, attitude continues to blight our game.

Applies equally to the old codgers in the ruling authorities blighting the system.

 

[Junior]

People struggle to embrace change. WHS won't work properly whilst golfers are reluctant to submit the majority of their rounds. It's a huge culture shift in the way we play for our handicaps here in the UK.

A "card in hand" generally means you're playing in a competition, the outcome of which will impact your handicap. There's a unique excitement associated with that, as there is playing a bounce game with your mates. Combining the two isn't for everyone, certainly not myself.

 

[2blue]

Applies equally to the old codgers in the ruling authorities blighting the system.

Nay lad...... in this case taking it forwards. ?? ?️‍

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I can see why some want all cards counting but I have no intention putting any card in if the course has just had work done on the greens. A catch all rule to put cards in needs some thought of all scenarios.

Not all cards - as some would like to suggest is what is demanded - just those where there is an organised singles comp with pre-registration. That does not include a knock with a couple or three mates.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

People struggle to embrace change. WHS won't work properly whilst golfers are reluctant to submit the majority of their rounds. It's a huge culture shift in the way we play for our handicaps here in the UK.

A "card in hand" generally means you're playing in a competition, the outcome of which will impact your handicap. There's a unique excitement associated with that, as there is playing a bounce game with your mates. Combining the two isn't for everyone, certainly not myself.

Yes indeed, an occasional competition where the outcome always mattered and could immediately impact your handicap. That is much less the case for rounds you chuck into your WHS pot of 20.

I suggest that the ‘card in hand‘ tension occurred because of the nature of the round...these days I don’t feel anything like the same tension when playing a rollup ‘qualifier’, however I still feel the tension when it is a board comp ‘qualifier’. I am teaching myself to differentiate between rounds that matter and rounds that don’t really matter.

Besides, in our rollups we used would play ‘card in hand‘ and submit it to the RU organiser at the end. Nobody complained about playing the round ‘card in hand’.

 

[Crow]

This is to a large degree anecdotal because I've never played in America, but I understand that serious club golfers put in most cards for handicap over there.

Because of this there's a large degree of "flexibility" with the rules:
"Oh, I'd have made a 5 there" when picking up 100 yards from the green after two shots.
Mulligans being used regularly and not just off the first tee.
Unusual interpretations of drop rules.
"Pick it up Joe" when Joe is 12 feet from the hole.
etc, etc.

If every card had to be entered then that's how I'd see it going over here, just to relieve the pressure of having to concentrate on every shot.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Every card does NOT have to be entered, people are talking extremes when reality is somewhere in the middle.

 

[AliMc]

Scottish Golf said from the start that for a score to be acceptable for handicap it had to be "during an active season".

Nothing to stop people punching in scores all winter via SG app however, but that's not what Scottish Golf intended.

How do you define 'during an active season', we have medals the first Saturday every month from Oct to Feb, sg also say that whs allows golfers to record scores 'all year round'

 

[Jimaroid]

Nay lad...... in this case taking it forwards. ?? ?️‍

Forwards is a relative direction, in the way many people face it's going backwards.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

People struggle to embrace change. WHS won't work properly whilst golfers are reluctant to submit the majority of their rounds. It's a huge culture shift in the way we play for our handicaps here in the UK.

A "card in hand" generally means you're playing in a competition, the outcome of which will impact your handicap. There's a unique excitement associated with that, as there is playing a bounce game with your mates. Combining the two isn't for everyone, certainly not myself.

The crux of it is we all have a choice now

The way the HC is measured has changed , previously people could put supplementaries in but didn’t but with the processes in place it’s a lot easier for everyone

But there appears to be some over zealous rule people who struggle to understand the difference between swindles/bounce games and competitions and how people want to seperate the two within their golfing calendar

 

[RichA]

Every card does NOT have to be entered, people are talking extremes when reality is somewhere in the middle.

Exactly. My group of new players and returners are only putting cards in for social rounds to give us the background data that provides an accurate handicap. Once I've got 20 in, I won't be bothered outside of the compulsory ones for comps. Unless I hit a run of good form and feel the urge to get more low scores recorded for the sake of my fragile ego.
Obviously, once you've declared that you're submitting your social round on the EG app, it has to be submitted and the card, at ours, is handed in to be verified.
Otherwise, my understanding is that submission of social rounds is totally voluntary. Is that not the case?

 

[Swango1980]

Exactly. My group of new players and returners are only putting cards in for social rounds to give us the background data that provides an accurate handicap. Once I've got 20 in, I won't be bothered outside of the compulsory ones for comps. Unless I hit a run of good form and feel the urge to get more low scores recorded for the sake of my fragile ego.
Obviously, once you've declared that you're submitting your social round on the EG app, it has to be submitted and the card, at ours, is handed in to be verified.
Otherwise, my understanding is that submission of social rounds is totally voluntary. Is that not the case?

Yes, as you said, if a player wants to submit a social round, they can pre-register and do so. If they do not, they simply don't bother. No one should be forcing anybody to do something against their wishes. Of course, no doubt organisers of swindles will do what is best for those that play in them. Some will just play using WHS handicaps (but not submit scores), some will have their own handicap system and some may ask everyone to pre-register and submit scores to WHS after. Let them decide what is best for themselves, the Committee shouldn't force anything upon them. The Committee should just ensure that any handicap requirements are meant if applicable, i.e. organisers are not telling people with a good score to submit it after, but not a bad score, as I know has been done at some places in the past. Ensuring pre-registration has been done properly, this should not be an issue.

 

[jim8flog]

Sorry - you missed my point. I'm talking about when we have stable handicaps and don't feel the need to stick a card in every time we play a social round, to get a decent number of scores on the system. The golf will become more for fun.
If you don't get it, it's because you've been a good golfer with what I would consider a low handicap for a long time. The newer guys who know they can shoot 80s but keep hitting 100s will know what I'm talking about.

One of the things you learn from paying golf for a long time is that periods of relatively the same scores are frequently rare for even a lot of fairly good golfers. Just since we have returned in April my scores have varied from 8 over gross to 25 over gross with all points in between. My WHS graph of scores is like a roller coaster.

My last 50

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Exactly. My group of new players and returners are only putting cards in for social rounds to give us the background data that provides an accurate handicap. Once I've got 20 in, I won't be bothered outside of the compulsory ones for comps. Unless I hit a run of good form and feel the urge to get more low scores recorded for the sake of my fragile ego.
Obviously, once you've declared that you're submitting your social round on the EG app, it has to be submitted and the card, at ours, is handed in to be verified.
Otherwise, my understanding is that submission of social rounds is totally voluntary. Is that not the case?

Agreed: as @woofers posted:

“From the CONGU guidance on WHS:
WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll- ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs.”

The guidance above is quite clear, imo, if you are playing to the rules of golf (as you would in a comp) then there’s no reason not to put a card in, if you aren’t, (gimmee’s, playing on your own, a few mates relaxing etc) then you don’t have to put a card in.

Those involved in society/roll-ups/swindles etc can only decide for themselves if their society/roll-ups/swindles fall within the guidelines or not and if they should or should not be submitting cards.

 

[wjemather]

The crux of it is we all have a choice now

The way the HC is measured has changed , previously people could put supplementaries in but didn’t but with the processes in place it’s a lot easier for everyone

But there appears to be some over zealous rule people who struggle to understand the difference between swindles/bounce games and competitions and how people want to seperate the two within their golfing calendar

CONGU (EG) have been very clear on what scores should be considered pre-registered. It is a shame that some people just have difficulty accepting that (and WHS in general), possibly because they cannot detach the notion of handicapping from formal competitions.

As noted countless times, there are currently many options that make scores unacceptable for handicapping (gimmies, advice, mulligans, playing formats, etc.) if people are truly desperate to avoid submitting cards, although it is likely that some of those options will be removed with the adoption of Most Likely Score (MLS) and additional playing formats (e.g. 4BBB) in the near future. Players under the USGA's jurisdiction have coped just fine with submitting all their scores for years - I see no reason why we can't manage equally well.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

CONGU (EG) have been very clear on what scores should be considered pre-registered. It is a shame that some people just have difficulty accepting that (and WHS in general), possibly because they cannot detach the notion of handicapping from formal competitions.

As noted countless times, there are currently many options that make scores unacceptable for handicapping (gimmies, advice, mulligans, playing formats, etc.) if people are truly desperate to avoid submitting cards, although it is likely that some of those options will be removed with the adoption of Most Likely Score (MLS) and additional playing formats (e.g. 4BBB) in the near future. Players under the USGA's jurisdiction have coped just fine with submitting all their scores for years - I see no reason why we can't manage equally well.

What is this “avoid” submitting cards business about ?

Is it not about choice and if people want to submit a card ?

We don’t have to submit all the scores and I don’t expect there to be any change on that within the UK.

Have EG not also been very clear on that as well

 

[RichA]

One of the things you learn from paying golf for a long time is that periods of relatively the same scores are frequently rare for even a lot of fairly good golfers. Just since we have returned in April my scores have varied from 8 over gross to 25 over gross with all points in between. My WHS graph of scores is like a roller coaster.

My last 50

View attachment 36600

Thanks. Turns out we both get it. I envy your having many very good rounds in the bank to provide some overall stability. Give it a year and hopefully my green line will be relatively stable, albeit some distance north of yours.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

This is to a large degree anecdotal because I've never played in America, but I understand that serious club golfers put in most cards for handicap over there.

Because of this there's a large degree of "flexibility" with the rules:
"Oh, I'd have made a 5 there" when picking up 100 yards from the green after two shots.
Mulligans being used regularly and not just off the first tee.
Unusual interpretations of drop rules.
"Pick it up Joe" when Joe is 12 feet from the hole.
etc, etc.

If every card had to be entered then that's how I'd see it going over here, just to relieve the pressure of having to concentrate on every shot.

Most likely score proposals bring this in. Currently being trialled in Ireland I believe and if a success will be at a course near you soon. "We're not in Kansas any more".

 

[wjemather]

What is this “avoid” submitting cards business about ?

Is it not about choice and if people want to submit a card ?

We don’t have to submit all the scores and I don’t expect there to be any change on that within the UK.

Have EG not also been very clear on that as well

Some people have commented (in this thread and others) that the rules of their organised rollup/swindle have been/will be changed with the stated intention of avoiding the requirement submit scores.