The seven most common Rules breaches at our club

[Swango1980]

I believe that advice is the mostly commonly ignored, I would go as far as saying that the majority of players are unaware of it. I have never heard of any player penalised for it in a normal club competition that I have been involved in. I have never seen it applied in my experience.

Perhaps penalised as often as slow play?

 

[chrisd]

You're correct in line with the rules, but in reality taking that view is definitely going to cause an argument because people almost never intend it that way.

If a player puts another ball down and says nothing at all, or, anything that doesn't include the word "provisional" wouldn't it be pretty easy to just ask if it's a provisional or not - it would take away any doubt and I can't see how anyone could take offence.

 

[Orikoru]

If a player puts another ball down and says nothing at all, or, anything that doesn't include the word "provisional" wouldn't it be pretty easy to just ask if it's a provisional or not - it would take away any doubt and I can't see how anyone could take offence.

Yeah that's what I'd do if there was time. That's not what he said though. He said he'd assume they were putting a new ball in play. I wouldn't!

My point about the argument was that if someone hit another ball, and you just assumed it was a new ball in play when in fact it's more likely he meant it as a provisional, particularly if he uses one of those phrases like 'reloading' or whatever.

 

[Backache]

I've no idea what rules are most ignored at our club but I think I have only once ever heard anyone give or ask for advice when a young lad asked another what club he hit.

 

[chrisd]

Yeah that's what I'd do if there was time. That's not what he said though. He said he'd assume they were putting a new ball in play. I wouldn't!

My point about the argument was that if someone hit another ball, and you just assumed it was a new ball in play when in fact it's more likely he meant it as a provisional, particularly if he uses one of those phrases like 'reloading' or whatever.

I had exactly that in a latter stage pairs match last summer. We had walked 10 yards off the teeing ground with his partner when we heard a shout that he was going to hit "another one" . Without any time to say anything he biffed one down the fairway. Still behind us, I saw him start to walk in the direction of the heavily sliced first ball and told him that if he found it he cannot play it as he didn't make it clear the second tee shot was a provisional, he claimed it was obvious he was playing a provisional, we told him it wasn't and if he found and played his first tee shot we would ask the committee to rule, and with that he went and played his 2nd ball. The problem was really, like most fairly new golfers, he didn't know the rules at all well by his own admission and, in fact, that was the last of three rulings on the day that confirmed he didn't have a scooby about rules.

 

[Orikoru]

I had exactly that in a latter stage pairs match last summer. We had walked 10 yards off the teeing ground with his partner when we heard a shout that he was going to hit "another one" . Without any time to say anything he biffed one down the fairway. Still behind us, I saw him start to walk in the direction of the heavily sliced first ball and told him that if he found it he cannot play it as he didn't make it clear the second tee shot was a provisional, he claimed it was obvious he was playing a provisional, we told him it wasn't and if he found and played his first tee shot we would ask the committee to rule, and with that he went and played his 2nd ball. The problem was really, like most fairly new golfers, he didn't know the rules at all well by his own admission and, in fact, that was the last of three rulings on the day that confirmed he didn't have a scooby about rules.

Totally within your rights to do that, of course. I'm just too soft. I'd have most likely just said "was that a provisional you just hit or not?" and accepted his answer.

Edit: You're right that plenty don't know the rule properly though (and that was of course the nature of this thread). I had to explain it to my mate the other week, who's off 29 but has been playing with us a good 4 years now. He'd hit a decent provisional but was having a look for his first ball with the intention of picking it up and playing from the 2nd ball. Then again he wasn't putting a card in or anything so could so as he likes on that occasion really.

 

[Swango1980]

If a player puts another ball down and says nothing at all, or, anything that doesn't include the word "provisional" wouldn't it be pretty easy to just ask if it's a provisional or not - it would take away any doubt and I can't see how anyone could take offence.

You'd think.

I did exactly that once before, on our 11th hole. Guy I was playing with was having a bad day, and hit an awful tee shot. He angrily walked to his bag to get another ball. I waited to see if he said it would be a provisional, but as he got back to tee he never said a word. At that point I sheepishly asked him if he was playing a provisional. He went mental, shouted "of course I (insert swear word) am". I told him I just wanted to make sure, as it isn't a provisional if you don't say. He then started arguing what the hell I thought it was, bla bla bla.

At that point I started arguing back, as I was pissed off with his reaction. Pretty quiet for rest of round, then he tried to start an argument in car park either.

You get all types who play golf.

 

[chrisd]

You get all types who play golf.

You do indeed, but just because someone is a dickhead he does still have to play within the rules and you're entitled to know whether it's a provisional or not.

 

[rulie]

"entitled"? In match play, yes. In stroke play, not so much.

 

[Swango1980]

"entitled"? In match play, yes. In stroke play, not so much.

Are you saying, in stroke play, a player has no need to announce a provisional as the people he is playing with have no need to know?

 

[rulefan]

Are you saying, in stroke play, a player has no need to announce a provisional as the people he is playing with have no need to know?

Only his marker.

 

[Swango1980]

Only his marker.

Ok. But in all fairness, I am pretty sure chrisd, in the context of what he said about being entitled to know if it was a provisional, meant that. I doubt chris meant that every single person within that group, or the entire field are entitled to know every time a provisional is played.

 

[rulie]

Only his marker.

And then only at the end of the hole when the marker asks for the player's score for that hole. A marker is not a referee nor an opponent.

 

[salfordlad]

Only his marker.

A marker's role is commonly misunderstood and misrepresented. ALL players in the stroke play competition are equally responsible for applying the rules correctly to the golf they witness. The marker's ONLY special role is to certify a specific scorecard. Wherever possible, a player putting a provisional ball in play has a responsibility to announce their intent - it is not a responsibility to specifically tell the marker about a provisional. The player also needs to ensure the marker gets the correct score for each hole.

 

[rulefan]

Of course every player has a responsibility under 20.1a to report a player who is ignoring a rule. In this case being clear about the status of the ball to be played.

And then only at the end of the hole when the marker asks for the player's score for that hole. A marker is not a referee nor an opponent.

Indeed but it would certainly help if the marker knew the situation beforehand.
If the marker doesn't know what the player intended at the time the stroke was made there could be a problem in reconciling the score.
If the marker believed the announcement (or lack of) was not correct, a referee or the committee would have to be involved.

 

[Colin L]

Clearly the requirement to announce a provisional implies an audience, but the Rules do no specify any particular player as a having to be in that audience. It's all very general. Although Rule 18.3b does not specify to whom the announcement must be made, Interpretation 18.3b/1 cleary indicates that it is more than just the marker or any single specified player:
Although Rule 18.3b does not specify to whom the announcement of a provisional ball must be made, an announcement must be made so that people in the vicinity of the player can hear it.
That does imply that anyone in the vicinity must be given the opportunity to hear the announcement . But I doubt a marker who happened to be off into the bushes seeking relief has any "right" to be told at the time. The sensible player will say "By the way, I played a provisional" when his marker comes back, but he doesn't have to.

In case anyone is unaware, the same Interpretation allows for a situation where there is no-one in the vicinity when a provisional is to be played. The requirement is for him/her to inform "someone" when it is possible to do so. (I doubt if someone is really meant to include a man and his dog out for a walk but the word is all-inclusive. )

 

[chrisd]

Whenever I've played strokeplay any player whose hit a poor shot (tee or otherwise) has, almost always, announced his intention to play a provisional and usually added the make and number of the ball, so as to differentiate it from the original ball for the search. On the odd occasion that they haven't made it clear someone has asked before the ball is hit, and I dont recall anyone being obnoxious as in Swango's case. I can't ever recall a situation when anyone who didn't declared a provisional pretended that his reload was a provisional.

 

[Swango1980]

So, can we agree that Post 69 probably added confusion to the discussion, by taking chrisd's comment out of context?

Stroke Play or Match Play, a player needs to announce to someone that they are playing a provisional before they do so (unless there is no one there of course). Someone is entitled to hear that announcement in the vicinity. Not necessarily chrisd or any one individual, but someone needs to hear that being communicated so that it is clear what is going on?

 

[rulie]

So, can we agree that Post 69 probably added confusion to the discussion, by taking chrisd's comment out of context?

Stroke Play or Match Play, a player needs to announce to someone that they are playing a provisional before they do so (unless there is no one there of course). Someone is entitled to hear that announcement in the vicinity. Not necessarily chrisd or any one individual, but someone needs to hear that being communicated so that it is clear what is going on?

Post #76 explains it well.

 

[DickInShorts]

As a reaction to many instances of players not clearly stating they’re playing a provisional on the - rare - occasions where I decide I’m putting another ball in play I always state:
“This is NOT a Provisional “