POLL: How do you feel about WHS?

[Dunesman]

I think any golfer can speak about their own experience, whether that indicates a 'flaw' or more likely, just a personal impact of the rating is another matter
I average over 8 shots higher from the comp tees than I do playing one tee forward, the stroke allowance difference is 'just' 3 shots

I don't know how many other players I'd have to find experiencing similar to change personal impact into flawed rating ?

They can have an opinion of course, but they most likely dont have a deep enough understanding of the matter for that opinion to consider it superior to and so correcting the official one. I will grant they may hold their erroneous opinion very strongly, and some placebo or comfort benefit helping their score may acrue from playing the tees of their choice under a mistaken belief.

 

[Slab]

They can have an opinion of course, but they most likely dont have a deep enough understanding of the matter for that opinion to consider it superior to and so correcting the official one. I will grant they may hold their erroneous opinion very strongly, and some placebo or comfort benefit helping their score may acrue from playing the tees of their choice under a mistaken belief.

But if a players opinion based on their experience/results doesn’t just carry little weight it actually carries no weight because its just wrong, how are any errors identified and, if needed, corrected/re-rated? Can’t just wait 10 years for next rating team

Who’s opinion or what data does carry a valid input

 

[clubchamp98]

Have you rated the course and its slope and identified the errors in its official rating that show you are not adequately adjusted when you play those tees ?

No but you said “ a golfer should be trained to see a difference”
That’s not true imo.
There is a clear difference for me!
Most might not see a difference but I do

 

[rulefan]

I think any golfer can speak about their own experience, whether that indicates a 'flaw' or more likely, just a personal impact of the rating is another matter
I average over 8 shots higher from the comp tees than I do playing one tee forward, the stroke allowance difference is 'just' 3 shots

I don't know how many other players I'd have to find experiencing similar to change personal impact into flawed rating ?

Has this been found to apply to most others in the club? The rating process is usually very accurate but the (very) odd rogue does get through.
CR is primarily about length. The 'model' scratch (and bogey) player is basically defined by their length of drive and fairway shots. If you are an accurate but short hitter that could explain a lot.

 

[clubchamp98]

So if you found a driver that hit the ball 20 yards further then your course would actually become more difficult for you?

Yes it would but 20 yds that's unlikley.
But would be great off the yellow tees.!

 

[clubchamp98]

They can have an opinion of course, but they most likely dont have a deep enough understanding of the matter for that opinion to consider it superior to and so correcting the official one. I will grant they may hold their erroneous opinion very strongly, and some placebo or comfort benefit helping their score may acrue from playing the tees of their choice under a mistaken belief.

Mistaken belief joke.
Comfort benefit I get two less shots off the white but the slope is higher so I find it easier off the longer course.

Off the whites grass of some sort.
Off the yellows Sand

I know my own game and am not mistaken.

 

[Slab]

Has this been found to apply to most others in the club? The rating process is usually very accurate but the (very) odd rogue does get through.
CR is primarily about length. The 'model' scratch (and bogey) player is basically defined by their length of drive and fairway shots. If you are an accurate but short hitter that could explain a lot.

As I mentioned on previous page I'm not sure how many I'd need to speak to but no chance I can engage with anywhere near 'most'
If my own opinion/results has no validity (I could just be an outlier) then sharing a 2nd hand opinion of the few I have chatted with & agree, is gonna carry even less weight

I've a great deal of admiration for everyone who volunteers for this and other golf club/course related work and I'm certain much time and effort has gone into the process and formula
I don't think the shot difference should be 8 between two tees just because that's my ability difference but it makes me question how far removed I can be from the bogey golfer in the model

 

[D-S]

Yes it would but 20 yds that's unlikley.
But would be great off the yellow tees.!

Must be tough when the ball is running out in the height of a dry summer.

 

[wjemather]

Has this been found to apply to most others in the club? The rating process is usually very accurate but the (very) odd rogue does get through.
CR is primarily about length. The 'model' scratch (and bogey) player is basically defined by their length of drive and fairway shots. If you are an accurate but short hitter that could explain a lot.

Outliers, i.e. players who vary significantly from the model scratch/bogey golfers (and the slope through them), are going to perceive difficulty very differently from the ratings, especially on more extreme courses with regards to length and/or obstacles.

Another issue affecting the perceived accuracy of ratings is variance in course setup - many are being setup outside of tolerance of the rating system on a daily basis (green speeds, rough heights, tee marker location/length, etc.); or were tricked up/down especially for the ratings.

 

[clubchamp98]

Must be tough when the ball is running out in the height of a dry summer.

How often is that?

If it’s running out a lot I just lay up of the sand 3/5 wood
Or take my chances with driver if playing well.

I don’t play yellows much but the seniors comps are all off them

 

[Whereditgo]

Surely the course rating is based on the average scratch and average bogey golfer. So playing from different tee's will affect different players who have the same/similar handicap differently.

I hit the ball a decent distance through the bag, so I prefer playing off the white tee's as I get an extra shot or two and can still comfortably reach even the longest par 4's in regulation. A couple of the guys I regularly play with, off a very similar handicap to me, have lost a bit of distance and can't even reach some of the par 4's in regulation with 2 of their best shots off the white tee's, so for them they prefer to forgo the extra stroke or two and play off the yellow tee's.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

I can imo.

Off the whites I can’t reach most of the fairway bunkers.
Off the yellows I can reach them.
So off the yellows plays harder to me as I lose two shots.

Driver is the strongest club in my bag.
So just hitting 3 wood leaves me the same second shots but with two shots less handicap.

What about when the wind changes or the fairways firm or soften up, The off whites you can reach the bunkers and off yellows you can clear them

 

[IanMac]

I can imo.

Off the whites I can’t reach most of the fairway bunkers.
Off the yellows I can reach them.
So off the yellows plays harder to me as I lose two shots.

Driver is the strongest club in my bag.
So just hitting 3 wood leaves me the same second shots but with two shots less handicap.

Yes, this is where it all falls down. You can dodge the course design by selecting the tee that suits your length so that you avoid the hazards. It's quite an oversight by the system.

 

[Slab]

Surely the course rating is based on the average scratch and average bogey golfer. So playing from different tee's will affect different players who have the same/similar handicap differently.

I hit the ball a decent distance through the bag, so I prefer playing off the white tee's as I get an extra shot or two and can still comfortably reach even the longest par 4's in regulation. A couple of the guys I regularly play with, off a very similar handicap to me, have lost a bit of distance and can't even reach some of the par 4's in regulation with 2 of their best shots off the white tee's, so for them they prefer to forgo the extra stroke or two and play off the yellow tee's.

So (question to anyone) is there a number of GIR's the "model" bogey golfer is expected to achieve on a course to be rated?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Just to bring things back to the original question, based on the poll numbers at this time:

50.4% are largely okay with WHS
33.1% are not great about it
The rest are ambivalent

An interesting point, those who really dislike it are only half the number of those who completely like it. I think if some people were hoping for a landslide 'anti' vote, this isn't it.

Not scientific or a huge number involved but it is a snapshot of a section who do like their golf enough to come on a forum.

 

[RichA]

So (question to anyone) is there a number of GIR's the "model" bogey golfer is expected to achieve on a course to be rated?

I guess it depends on how many 3-putts the model bogey golfer is expected to make.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Yes, this is where it all falls down. You can dodge the course design by selecting the tee that suits your length so that you avoid the hazards. It's quite an oversight by the system.

But having the same handicap regardless of which course you played was better?

If you dodge the course design in the way clubchamp does then you just leave yourself longer shots in, therefore making it harder to score, which may have been the course was likely to have been designed
Maybe it’s not such a problem if you play a short easy course, but play one of a proper length that is more difficult the strategy starts to come apart pretty quickly.

Now, I’m sure clubchamp will be along in a moment to tell us he is better from 180 than 150 so all is well.

 

[Imurg]

Just to bring things back to the original question, based on the poll numbers at this time:

50.4% are largely okay with WHS
33.1% are not great about it
The rest are ambivalent

An interesting point, those who really dislike it are only half the number of those who completely like it. I think if some people were hoping for a landslide 'anti' vote, this isn't it.

Not scientific or a huge number involved but it is a snapshot of a section who do like their golf enough to come on a forum.

The problem is....if they "fix" it the way the complainers want...will it swing the other way and a si,ilar number will now dislike it..?
You can't please everyone all the time so maybe pleasing the majority is the road they've gone down....

 

[wjemather]

So (question to anyone) is there a number of GIR's the "model" bogey golfer is expected to achieve on a course to be rated?

Not as such.
To over simplify how it works...
The model bogey golfer hits the ball 180 yards carry + 20 yards roll from the tee and 150+20 yards for subsequent shots, with a set distribution pattern.
These distances set the landing zones, and the distribution pattern determines the value of the landing zones as a target (based on their size) and the value of any obstacles (both in and around the landing zones, and elsewhere on the hole).
All these values (and values for many other factors, e.g. length, rough height, green speed & contours, topography, etc.) are totaled along with a base value to give the bogey rating.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

The problem is....if they "fix" it the way the complainers want...will it swing the other way and a si,ilar number will now dislike it..?
You can't please everyone all the time so maybe pleasing the majority is the road they've gone down....

The minority who want to go back to the old system don’t care that there are many many more people who are happy with WHS and have no desire to go back.