POLL: How do you feel about WHS?

[Deleted member 36483]

That’s very impressive, how many members do you have in total?

Fair question. Not sure exactly. I'm only quoting males under scratch and some of them are away. I think we have about 600 males.

 

[PaulMdj]

Fair question. Not sure exactly. I'm only quoting males under scratch and some of them are away. I think we have about 600 males.

Club Champs must be a good day.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Fair question. Not sure exactly. I'm only quoting males under scratch and some of them are away. I think we have about 600 males.

Just to add. Before WHS we probably had about 5 plus handicappers. I could name them. They are still the standout players and a few well known names.

 

[PaulMdj]

Just to add. Before WHS we probably had about 5 plus handicappers. I could name them. They are still the standout players and a few well known names.

Which Club if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Which Club if you don’t mind me asking?

It's a fair question but I'm not going to be specific. Sorry, you'll just have to believe me, or not. However I'm not making it up.

My point is that there are clubs that have a lot of lower handicappers and when I look at our competitions they generally don't bother to play since WHS. When they do play the conditions have to be right. They use a competition to get their competitive rounds on their record. We have various tee options and they choose the easiest for the long hitters. The old guys choose the ladies tees and so do some younger guys.

It's a messy situation.

 

[PaulMdj]

It's a fair question but I'm not going to be specific. Sorry, you'll just have to believe me, or not. However I'm not making it up.

My point is that there are clubs that have a lot of lower handicappers and when I look at our competitions they generally don't bother to play since WHS. When they do play the conditions have to be right. They use a competition to get their competitive rounds on their record. We have various tee options and they choose the easiest for the long hitters. The old guys choose the ladies tees and so do some younger guys.

It's a messy situation.

It wasn’t a trick question and I have no reason to doubt you.

We have 4 +Golfers and a total of 48 single figure Golfers out of a membership of approx 300 males.

I can understand how having so many scratch golfers in one Club would raise the level of concerns over the WHS.

We are lucky that the majority of our 5 and below handicappers are really grounded guys who, as I’ve said before have rarely had the chance of winning a handicap comp, they’ve had about 4 wins this season (that includes 4BBB) and it’s been a good season for them. We run comps sat/sun 52 weeks a year so they just tend to play in all of them if available, playing for themselves and the odd 2.

We only charge £2.00 for comps and £1.50 for 2’s so they win more from the 2’s pot than they do Comps.

We’ve had very little muttering about WHS, in the main members get on with it.

Handicap committee is very proactive, very good tbh and have only had to pull in 2 people (to my knowledge) over handicap manipulation and 1 guy (single figure) for not submitting cards after comps.

 

[wjemather]

It's a fair question but I'm not going to be specific. Sorry, you'll just have to believe me, or not. However I'm not making it up.

My point is that there are clubs that have a lot of lower handicappers and when I look at our competitions they generally don't bother to play since WHS. When they do play the conditions have to be right. They use a competition to get their competitive rounds on their record. We have various tee options and they choose the easiest for the long hitters. The old guys choose the ladies tees and so do some younger guys.

It's a messy situation.

Are these vanity handicappers also complaining about being uncompetitive in handicap competitions?

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Are these vanity handicappers also complaining about being uncompetitive in handicap competitions?

No, I don't think they are too interested but they do have to protect their handicaps so they can make the cut for open scratch comps in Ireland. The cut off is usually something like +2!

 

[2blue]

It's a fair question but I'm not going to be specific. Sorry, you'll just have to believe me, or not. However I'm not making it up.

My point is that there are clubs that have a lot of lower handicappers and when I look at our competitions they generally don't bother to play since WHS. When they do play the conditions have to be right. They use a competition to get their competitive rounds on their record. We have various tee options and they choose the easiest for the long hitters. The old guys choose the ladies tees and so do some younger guys.

It's a messy situation.

If this is not manipulation then I'm unsure what is!!

 

[clubchamp98]

If this is not manipulation then I'm unsure what is!!

Genuine question.
Can you manipulate something by not participating in it?

 

[Dunesman]

My point is that there are clubs that have a lot of lower handicappers and when I look at our competitions they generally don't bother to play since WHS. When they do play the conditions have to be right. They use a competition to get their competitive rounds on their record. We have various tee options and they choose the easiest for the long hitters. The old guys choose the ladies tees and so do some younger guys.

The tees played from make no difference to handicapping. Thanks to slope and CR, there is no such thing as easier or more difficult tees, from a differential point of view. Low handicappers gain nothing from playing the shortest tees.

I will agree though that WHS has made things more uncomfortable for some low men. The term vanity is used a lot in this context, but while valid in some extreme cases, it implies a criticism that is not always or entirely merited.

Playing off scratch or a low HI is something to be proud of, a worthy goal of to some extent mastering golf, and does garner deserved renown and respect from the rest of us who are many shots from that level and know we will never get near it. Some understanding is due to lower men who did find it easier under the old method to maintain their low handicap. Now a hard worked for scratch can blow back a few shots in a month or two. Not that their scores dont suggest that is a correct indicator of their form. It is. But previously, they could more easily have held their scratch or whatever handicap, and so retained their status. Its a different system. But I can understand how they too, even if it made them uncompetitive while their form was off, have some nostalgia for a world where retaining their position in it was less buffeted round to round.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

The tees played from make no difference to handicapping. Thanks to slope and CR, there is no such thing as easier or more difficult tees, from a differential point of view. Low handicappers gain nothing from playing the shortest tees.

I will agree though that WHS has made things more uncomfortable for some low men. The term vanity is used a lot in this context, but while valid in some extreme cases, it implies a criticism that is not always or entirely merited.

Playing off scratch or a low HI is something to be proud of, a worthy goal of to some extent mastering golf, and does garner deserved renown and respect from the rest of us who are many shots from that level and know we will never get near it. Some understanding is due to lower men who did find it easier under the old method to maintain their low handicap. Now a hard worked for scratch can blow back a few shots in a month or two. Not that their scores dont suggest that is a correct indicator of their form. It is. But previously, they could more easily have held their scratch or whatever handicap, and so retained their status. Its a different system. But I can understand how they too, even if it made them uncompetitive while their form was off, have some nostalgia for a world where retaining their position in it was less buffeted round to round.

There more certainly are, unless you're claiming that Course ratings are flawless, which they clearly are not

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

It's a fair question but I'm not going to be specific. Sorry, you'll just have to believe me, or not. However I'm not making it up.

My point is that there are clubs that have a lot of lower handicappers and when I look at our competitions they generally don't bother to play since WHS. When they do play the conditions have to be right. They use a competition to get their competitive rounds on their record. We have various tee options and they choose the easiest for the long hitters. The old guys choose the ladies tees and so do some younger guys.

It's a messy situation.

This has always been the case with very low player. Under the old system they would only play monthly medals and medal board comps at my place otherwise they were getting .1 back if they didn’t shoot in the mid 60s gross.

You’ve also just about confirmed that you have a problem with handicap manipulation at your club just as clubchamp does. Seems like there is a hell of a lot of vanity caps in some clubs. No wonder these people aren’t competitive in the weekly comps.

 

[clubchamp98]

This has always been the case with very low player. Under the old system they would only play monthly medals and medal board comps at my place otherwise they were getting .1 back if they didn’t shoot in the mid 60s gross.

You’ve also just about confirmed that you have a problem with handicap manipulation at your club just as clubchamp does. Seems like there is a hell of a lot of vanity caps in some clubs. No wonder these people aren’t competitive in the weekly comps.

There might be lots of vanity caps all over the country but no mention how they got them.

Under UHS a plus cap was very very good.
It was also achieved under comp conditions.

The big difference is now some can’t play to it ,
It’s just there to get them in elite comps on top courses to the detriment of genuine golfers.

 

[Dunesman]

There more certainly are, unless you're claiming that Course ratings are flawless, which they clearly are not

One doesnt have to claim course ratings are flawless. Some may be flawed.
But we can safely say, that unless the golfer making the decision that one tee is more favourable to his handicap than another is trained in course and slope rating, then he is wrong. I dont think any sensible claim could be made that an average golfer who hasnt read, let alone trained and gained experience in the matter, making an off the cuff judgement, is offering a valid assessment more likely to be accurate than those who made the official rating.

 

[Dunesman]

This has always been the case with very low player. Under the old system they would only play monthly medals and medal board comps at my place otherwise they were getting .1 back if they didn’t shoot in the mid 60s gross.

Such handicap manipulation has always been a factor with low handicappers.

 

[clubchamp98]

One doesnt have to claim course ratings are flawless. Some may be flawed.
But we can safely say, that unless the golfer making the decision that one tee is more favourable to his handicap than another is trained in course and slope rating, then he is wrong. I dont think any sensible claim could be made that an average golfer who hasnt read, let alone trained and gained experience in the matter, making an off the cuff judgement, is offering a valid assessment more likely to be accurate than those who made the official rating.

I can imo.

Off the whites I can’t reach most of the fairway bunkers.
Off the yellows I can reach them.
So off the yellows plays harder to me as I lose two shots.

Driver is the strongest club in my bag.
So just hitting 3 wood leaves me the same second shots but with two shots less handicap.

 

[Dunesman]

I can imo.

Off the whites I can’t reach most of the fairway bunkers.
Off the yellows I can reach them.
So off the yellows plays harder to me as I lose two shots.

Driver is the strongest club in my bag.
So just hitting 3 wood leaves me the same second shots but with two shots less handicap.

Have you rated the course and its slope and identified the errors in its official rating that show you are not adequately adjusted when you play those tees ?

 

[Slab]

One doesnt have to claim course ratings are flawless. Some may be flawed.
But we can safely say, that unless the golfer making the decision that one tee is more favourable to his handicap than another is trained in course and slope rating, then he is wrong. I dont think any sensible claim could be made that an average golfer who hasnt read, let alone trained and gained experience in the matter, making an off the cuff judgement, is offering a valid assessment more likely to be accurate than those who made the official rating.

I think any golfer can speak about their own experience, whether that indicates a 'flaw' or more likely, just a personal impact of the rating is another matter
I average over 8 shots higher from the comp tees than I do playing one tee forward, the stroke allowance difference is 'just' 3 shots

I don't know how many other players I'd have to find experiencing similar to change personal impact into flawed rating ?

 

[D-S]

I can imo.

Off the whites I can’t reach most of the fairway bunkers.
Off the yellows I can reach them.
So off the yellows plays harder to me as I lose two shots.

Driver is the strongest club in my bag.
So just hitting 3 wood leaves me the same second shots but with two shots less handicap.

So if you found a driver that hit the ball 20 yards further then your course would actually become more difficult for you?