Is technical instruction a hinderence?

[clubchamp98]

I've played lots of other sports (football, squash etc.) and never got remotely technical with any of them.

I guess the difference with golf is the margin for error is so much smaller. Bad technique gets amplified compared to other sports, which is why I think people get more technical with golf. I definitely got too technical at times with golf in the past.

The Sweet Spot podcast talk a lot about making things more simple and just focusing on the big three (impact location, ground contact, and face angle) (the episode is here for anyone who's interested). In recent times that's what I've been doing and have had better results than when I was focusing on positions in the swing.

In the other sports you mention the ball is moving.
You are limited by the skill set of your opponent as well.
Your thinking and moving to where you think the ball will be.

But golf it’s just sitting there!
It’s a mental thing as well with all sorts of things going through your head.
If I think put this there I always play bad.
I play my best golf with nothing in my head.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes, its worth exploring with him at least.

Interested to hear too how he thinks he could add consistency, without changing your swing.

I'm pretty certain that, at least in the first instance, he'd look at the consistency of my stance and address - and the clarity of my objective for any shot.

ETA...I have a feeling that he'll say that I can intuitively hit a ball - that where I have inconsistently is as much down to my starting point as any thing else - but I will ask.

 

[Golf is fun]

From the lofty authoritative position of a long time high teens handicapper, I would take issue with your coach. His is talking cobblers.

There is no such thing as improving consistency per se. Inconsistency, is a bad swing that hits randomly good shots. You feel you are doing the same thing, but the technique weaknesses mean the actual performing of the swing, and path and dynamics of the club head, are very variable.

You cannot simply become more consistent, yet not change your swing. Change your swing - in the right way, as you say, your goal isnt to be scratch, or spend 3 years totally remodelling your swing - and your consistency will improve. The skill of a coach is knowing what to change for a given case. What will bring the best benefit for the amount of practice, time to change, athletic ability, and goals of the golfer.

Part of the illusion that keeps us thinking we can improve and be better golfers is this very factor. We have, and can hit, good shots much better than our bad shots, therefore, all we need to do is get consistent to have the good shot, all the time or more often. But this is false. The good shots are just luck, and the upper end of the swing you have. Only by changing the swing to move the whole spectrum of good to bad shot up, will you really improve.

I'd look at it from a different perspective. If you have a swing that is capable of hitting good shots, or at least good enough for your goals then you just need to get to the point where you feel completely comfortable with it, so a majority of the shots you hit are the good (enough) ones.

This looking for constant change is what holds amateurs back. The fact that the idea of keep making changes to get consistent doesn't make sense, yet is accepted as "common wisdom" by many people. You make changes to get to the level of performance you need, once you've reached that you keep it the same to get consistent with it. Elite athletes despite media images that picture otherwise are generally quite boring people (or at least with their sport), they are happy to do repetitions of the same thing over and over to master it, yet amateurs think they can put in a fraction of this effort and expect faster results.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'd look at it from a different perspective. If you have a swing that is capable of hitting good shots, or at least good enough for your goals then you just need to get to the point where you feel completely comfortable with it, so a majority of the shots you hit are the good (enough) ones.

This looking for constant change is what holds amateurs back. The fact that the idea of keep making changes to get consistent doesn't make sense, yet is accepted as "common wisdom" by many people. You make changes to get to the level of performance you need, once you've reached that you keep it the same to get consistent with it. Elite athletes despite media images that picture otherwise are generally quite boring people (or at least with their sport), they are happy to do repetitions of the same thing over and over to master it, yet amateurs think they can put in a fraction of this effort and expect faster results.

Which is exactly my point. My HI is 7.7 and CH at home course just jumped from 8 to 10 (change in course CR and SI). But I have been down to a CH of 6 summer - albeit for a short period. My objective is to be able to play to 6 fairly consistently - if I occasionally drop down to 5 then great - if I occasionally drift up to 7 then no big deal. But that's my objective. My coach tells me I have the game. I know where I chuck shots away...driving good; putting good; 8i/9i and wedges good; 150-180yds - messy but adequate; within 20yds pitching and chipping short game - inconsistent.

We have made a massive change to my swing over the last three years without actually very much at all in the way of technical teaching or adjustments to how I was swinging it - or at least nothing much that I am aware of and can bring to mind as far as my backswing is concerned. I had to change my swing path of near 40yrs from strong in-to-out with a low draw - to out-to-in. We seem to have succeeded. How did we do it? My coach asked me "Can you fade the ball?" I said that I could as I often have to do it on two holes where I get too far down the right and my recovery is a 'slider' round a dog-leg. And his coaching? "Let's just check your stance and address position - then just think of doing your slider every single shot on the practice ground and on the course". Now when it goes wrong it's usually me not clearing my LHS on the downswing and me reverting to my old 'arms and fast hands' method.

It's been a very difficult and long transition...but I'm getting there - and I have absolutely no swing thoughts after I have taken my stance and addressed the ball - because I haven't been taught any - other than 'hit a slider' (and I usually don't bother thinking that these days)

But I'll ask my pro if he's done tech things I'm not aware of. He's mostly now just working with me to raise my awareness - and so by watching my ball flight and then checking my divot I can work out what's happened at strike.

 

[Golf is fun]

Which is exactly my point. My HI is 7.7 and CH at home course just jumped from 8 to 10 (change in course CR and SI). But I have been down to a CH of 6 summer - albeit for a short period. My objective is to be able to play to 6 fairly consistently - if I occasionally drop down to 5 then great - if I occasionally drift up to 7 then no big deal. But that's my objective. My coach tells me I have the game. I know where I chuck shots away...driving good; putting good; 8i/9i and wedges good; 150-180yds - messy but adequate; within 20yds pitching and chipping short game - inconsistent.

We have made a massive change to my swing over the last three years without actually very much at all in the way of technical teaching or adjustments to how I was swinging it - or at least nothing much that I am aware of and can bring to mind as far as my backswing is concerned. I had to change my swing path of near 40yrs from strong in-to-out with a low draw - to out-to-in. We seem to have succeeded. How did we do it? My coach asked me "Can you fade the ball?" I said that I could as I often have to do it on two holes where I get too far down the right and my recovery is a 'slider' round a dog-leg. And his coaching? "Let's just check your stance and address position - then just think of doing your slider every single shot on the practice ground and on the course". Now when it goes wrong it's usually me not clearing my LHS on the downswing and me reverting to my old 'arms and fast hands' method.

It's been a very difficult and long transition...but I'm getting there - and I have absolutely no swing thoughts after I have taken my stance and addressed the ball - because I haven't been taught any - other than 'hit a slider' (and I usually don't bother thinking that these days)

But I'll ask my pro if he's done tech things I'm not aware of.

This is the key, it's not that technical changes are bad, its making the player being coached too aware that tends to be the problem. The coach can have as much technical knowledge as possible, but they should be able to use this to get the desired outcome from the player without the player having to know or think about the technical stuff.

For example you could set a hurdle at a certain height and ask someone to hit underneath it. Most people would play around with setup and technique, eventually figuring a way to deloft the club and produce this outcome. They don't need to know all the mechanics of delofting the club to do this, yet they will have made a technical change of their mechanics to achieve the task.

 

[VVega]

You make changes to get to the level of performance you need, once you've reached that you keep it the same to get consistent with it

Have to disagree strongly with this. Unlike some sports golf is multi-variant to the power of … Literally all golf pros are constantly changing and rebalancing: swapping putters, grip styles, using widgets, getting various coaches contributing ideas etc etc etc

Eddie Pepperell is quite open about all of this on the CF podcast. The challenge is that whenever they reach some optimal balance (like he had in 2018) it doesn’t last and they need to keep looking for it — pretty much as we all do.

 

[Golf is fun]

Have to disagree strongly with this. Unlike some sports golf is multi-variant to the power of … Literally all golf pros are constantly changing and rebalancing: swapping putters, grip styles, using widgets, getting various coaches contributing ideas etc etc etc

Eddie Pepperell is quite open about all of this on the CF podcast. The challenge is that whenever they reach some optimal balance (like he had in 2018) it doesn’t last and they need to keep looking for it — pretty much as we all do.

Unless I am reading it wrong, you are saying the pros are constantly changing to get a performance edge, not to get consistency. That's just smaller micro cycles of the same process. If a pro changes coach and adopts a new swing concept, they repeatedly work on it over and over to make it natural, they don't watch YouTube and pick a new concept next range session and then inspired by Instagram another one the week after.

Pros need to do this to get the marginal gains that will put them ahead of their peers, but if you're chasing a goal like getting to signal figures or scratch, you don't need to beat every other single figure golfer, or scratch golfer, you can be the only scratch golfer in the world, or 1 of 100 million scratch golfers you've still achieved your aim.

 

[VVega]

Unless I am reading it wrong, you are saying the pros are constantly changing to get a performance edge, not to get consistency.

What I’m trying to say is that consistency is ephemeral even at their level. No one is able to keep it all together for long enough, so they constantly loose some aspect of the game and then trying to re-discover with any ideas they can find. => Exactly as any club golfer.

Using Eddie as an example, he uses a mini driver as the driver doesn’t work, chips with left hand lower and watches videos of Dr Kwon…

 

[Golf is fun]

What I’m trying to say is that consistency is ephemeral even at their level. No one is able to keep it all together for long enough, so they constantly loose some aspect of the game and then trying to re-discover with any ideas they can find. => Exactly as any club golfer.

Using Eddie as an example, he uses a mini driver as the driver doesn’t work, chips with left hand lower and watches videos of Dr Kwon…

No disrespect to Eddie, but he's also not winning anything. I acknowledge he clearly is a top level player in the big scheme of things, but he's not won anything for 5+ years, probably another similarity to club golfers! He could be thrashing around trying to find that magic, but equally the reason he is not winning could be exactly that he is thrashing around. It's another one of those unanswerables.

If you look at players like Jack, Tiger, Sir Nick, even where they have chosen to rebuild swings it's been a long and dedicated process, with a specific outcome in mind, not flitting around trying to find the next thing that might be "the one".

 

[Dunesman]

No disrespect to Eddie, but he's also not winning anything. I acknowledge he clearly is a top level player in the big scheme of things, but he's not won anything for 5+ years, probably another similarity to club golfers! He could be thrashing around trying to find that magic, but equally the reason he is not winning could be exactly that he is thrashing around. It's another one of those unanswerables.

If you look at players like Jack, Tiger, Sir Nick, even where they have chosen to rebuild swings it's been a long and dedicated process, with a specific outcome in mind, not flitting around trying to find the next thing that might be "the one".

Comparing apples and oranges really. Eddie has had for 20 years, and still has, that magic. Is change in form is, in the greater scheme of golfing performance, i significant. i.e. ie would disagree with VVega - Eddie is excpetionally consistent, and that is unchanged by the fact he is not at his 2018 or whenever, level. And rather than ephemeral, it is permanent, until the general decline of the body during the 40s.

 

[Dunesman]

Have to disagree strongly with this. Unlike some sports golf is multi-variant to the power of … Literally all golf pros are constantly changing and rebalancing: swapping putters, grip styles, using widgets, getting various coaches contributing ideas etc etc etc

Much of that is voodoo. And generally making little or no difference to them. Its in human nature to always look for the better method or tool. Even the 30 handicapper is lured to spend £500 on a new driver harbours some hint (even against his rational self), that his driving will improve. Pros are human too, and it mustt be acknowledged that while their tinkering is fundamentally pointless, in some cases it has a positive placebo effect, or coincides randomly with some good shots or form and so the improvement is associated with the tinker.

 

[VVega]

Eddie is excpetionally consistent

He himself begs to differ but maybe you know him better than he does

 

[Dunesman]

He himself begs to differ but maybe you know him better than he does

He must be wrong.
But of course, he is speaking on a different scale, and not really the discussion here on whether one can improve ones golf by improving consistency in isolation. The Eddie argument proves the point of this discussion though, on what makes a good golfer. He is incredibly consistent, no matter what he says
Thats why he can still cut it at pro level and is a world ranking golfer. So he must be incredibly consistent, or he would be a 20 handicapper. He is world class because his swing is essentially extremely excellent, which makes him consistent.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Which is exactly my point. My HI is 7.7 and CH at home course just jumped from 8 to 10 (change in course CR and SI). But I have been down to a CH of 6 summer - albeit for a short period. My objective is to be able to play to 6 fairly consistently - if I occasionally drop down to 5 then great - if I occasionally drift up to 7 then no big deal. But that's my objective. My coach tells me I have the game. I know where I chuck shots away...driving good; putting good; 8i/9i and wedges good; 150-180yds - messy but adequate; within 20yds pitching and chipping short game - inconsistent.

We have made a massive change to my swing over the last three years without actually very much at all in the way of technical teaching or adjustments to how I was swinging it - or at least nothing much that I am aware of and can bring to mind as far as my backswing is concerned. I had to change my swing path of near 40yrs from strong in-to-out with a low draw - to out-to-in. We seem to have succeeded. How did we do it? My coach asked me "Can you fade the ball?" I said that I could as I often have to do it on two holes where I get too far down the right and my recovery is a 'slider' round a dog-leg. And his coaching? "Let's just check your stance and address position - then just think of doing your slider every single shot on the practice ground and on the course". Now when it goes wrong it's usually me not clearing my LHS on the downswing and me reverting to my old 'arms and fast hands' method.

It's been a very difficult and long transition...but I'm getting there - and I have absolutely no swing thoughts after I have taken my stance and addressed the ball - because I haven't been taught any - other than 'hit a slider' (and I usually don't bother thinking that these days)

But I'll ask my pro if he's done tech things I'm not aware of. He's mostly now just working with me to raise my awareness - and so by watching my ball flight and then checking my divot I can work out what's happened at strike.

...and so I asked. And his answer isn't easy to capture - but it seems that he coaches to build an understanding of hitting the ball and what happens after it's hit in any particular way - so yes there is technical information and instruction in there. The exercises he gives me to practice are aimed at developing that understanding - so exploring what happens when I do certain things and convincing myself that I can do it. To hit the ball further or 'better' my top level task is that he wants me to deliver more force on the ball - and in many senses how I do that is up to me - but it's only up to me to a limited extent as he gets me in the right position to start delivering force with a limited backswing and a limited objective - but makes what I am doing 'self-'scaleable'.

Having said all that I don't think I've captured what he said very well. Maybe I'll find a quote as he did an interview for the PGA Online off the back of his success with Lottie.

 

[Golf is fun]

...and so I asked. And his answer isn't easy to capture - but it seems that he coaches to build an understanding of hitting the ball and what happens after it's hit in any particular way - so yes there is technical information and instruction in there. The exercises he gives me to practice are aimed at developing that understanding - so exploring what happens when I do certain things and convincing myself that I can do it. To hit the ball further or 'better' my top level task is that he wants me to deliver more force on the ball - and in many senses how I do that is up to me - but it's only up to me to a limited extent as he gets me in the right position to start delivering force with a limited backswing and a limited objective - but makes what I am doing 'self-'scaleable'.

Having said all that I don't think I've captured what he said very well. Maybe I'll find a quote as he did an interview for the PGA Online off the back of his success with Lottie.

Appreciate you taking the time to ask this, and post the response.

The way I read this it sounds like what I was trying to get at with my questioning of technical instruction - not that changing technique itself is bad, but the process of doing it in traditional golf instruction, where teachers often focus on specific individual joint or muscle movements or worse static positions rather than having a task that will naturally move the pupil towards the best movement for them.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Appreciate you taking the time to ask this, and post the response.

The way I read this it sounds like what I was trying to get at with my questioning of technical instruction - not that changing technique itself is bad, but the process of doing it in traditional golf instruction, where teachers often focus on specific individual joint or muscle movements or worse static positions rather than having a task that will naturally move the pupil towards the best movement for them.

From a short interview with my Pro/Coach (link underneath)

I’m not a majorly technical or positional coach. I work backwards from the ball flight, focusing on the player understanding what I am trying to get them to do at impact and then build a technique off that. In other words, making the technique organic to the things that the player is trying to do with the ball and the club.

Not too long ago I went into a bit of a hole in terms of thinking coaching was all about technology. I almost ended up leaning on it a bit too much and relying on it.

I’ve almost gone full circle now. Instead, I use it occasionally to back up the work I’ve done with people rather than start with it as a baseline. Lottie and I use it regularly when she is back to get a few numbers on her swing path, just to make sure that she can start the ball right and draw it back.

Unlocking coaching potential with Luke Bone

I'll note that as far as 'talent' is concerned Luke's take on the talent that Lottie has is that it's as much, if not more, in her mindset and dedication as in any innate 'technical' skillset she was born with. Indeed Luke with tell you how Lottie's younger sister had 'age-for-age' a better technical swing and more natural talent than Lottie - but nowhere near the mindset that Lottie has.

 

[Golf is fun]

Nice article, really like his 3 points at the end:

Luke's three tips to nurturing and developing talent:

1. Firstly, you must go and find information that disrupts what you currently believe. You must learn more. I’ve done it a lot over the years. I don’t regret anything in life, but I would have liked to have started my development as a coach earlier by disrupting it earlier. Go and spend time with other good coaches, find PGA seminars to attend, go to things that maybe don’t even agree with what you think. Challenge yourself in that way. That is where you will find your own voice.
2. Explore how to achieve tasks. Give pupils problems to solve not positions to hit. Do not restrict them by telling them where to put their feet or where to put their hands for as long as you can. Because I think if you get good at coaching in this way you can get people to choose the correct positions and the correct grips. What I’ve seen, as I’ve developed this method of coaching, is that people can adopt the correct things if you give them real clarity, rather than tell them in the first few hours when you meet them where to put their hands on the club.
3. Learning golf has to be fun. It should be a prerequisite at every golf club that there is some sort of junior academy because it’s the future of the club, it’s the future of your golf coaches at that club and it’s the future of golf.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Nice article, really like his 3 points at the end:

One of the things Luke has me doing as I work on my strike - is that when I pick up the club I pick it up in both hands; set the face of the club with the back of my left hand; then slide the hands together. This all being linked to what I want of the clubface at strike.

When I asked about releasing my right hand grip a bit to take the traditional overlap grip I have used since forever - he asked me 'why do you want to do that? Because I always have done it that way. 'So try not doing it - just slide them together without any overlap and see how that feels and how you get on'. And so I did.

Previous attempts to tweak my grip in the trad way always left me with a grip that felt uncomfortable - but was told that if I stuck with it I'd get used to it...well I can't recall that ever really working. But with the grip as I now set it - it felt instantly comfortable and right - and so that's my new grip. I can't believe how easy it has been to completely change my grip.

 

[garyinderry]

One of the things Luke has me doing as I work on my strike - is that when I pick up the club I pick it up in both hands; set the face of the club with the back of my left hand; then slide the hands together. This all being linked to what I want of the clubface at strike.

When I asked about releasing my right hand grip a bit to take the traditional overlap grip I have used since forever - he asked me 'why do you want to do that? Because I always have done it that way. 'So try not doing it - just slide them together without any overlap and see how that feels and how you get on'. And so I did.

Previous attempts to tweak my grip in the trad way always left me with a grip that felt uncomfortable - but was told that if I stuck with it I'd get used to it...well I can't recall that ever really working. But with the grip as I now set it - it felt instantly comfortable and right - and so that's my new grip. I can't believe how easy it has been to completely change my grip.

Has he changed you from overlap to baseball?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Has he changed you from overlap to baseball?

Yup. Played overlap since I started up with the game and taught myself using Hogan's book 1970'ish. The way my coach got me to 'baseball' grip was so easy and intuitive that it instantly felt natural. And I changed it for putting as well. Point is that he said if I wanted to continue with my grip as it was - or change back to it after a while if I wanted - then I could just go ahead - it wasn't going to change anything he'd been coaching me on about understanding my strike,.