Longer Courses rated for Ladies

[rulefan]

Disappointingly, the home of England Golf appears to remain very conservative with Reds only for Ladies and Yellow, White and Blue for the Men.

I assume you mean Woodhall Spa. I would suggest the Lady Members didn't want the yellows rating.

England Golf suggests to all County Rating Team managers that clubs are specifically asked if they want any tees rating for both genders. Before I retired from the job I had rated a number of yellow and red tees for both genders jointly with a Ladies Team.

 

[YandaB]

I assume you mean Woodhall Spa. I would suggest the Lady Members didn't want the yellows rating.

England Golf suggests to all County Rating Team managers that clubs are specifically asked if they want any tees rating for both genders. Before I retired from the job I had rated a number of yellow and red tees for both genders jointly with a Ladies Team.

I did, I was hoping that they would be an exemplar of gender inclusivity both for members and visitors and a showcase of how things should be. I guess I was hoping for too much :-(

 

[YandaB]

Courses should all have the tee rated for gender neutral but this really just means the Course ratings will be different.

I assume there will still be a card for ladies and a card for gents simply because the pars for either sex can be different.

Pars should be set as per this chart

https://www.randa.org/en/rules-of-handicapping/2019/rules/appendices/appendix-f

Thanks Jim, that is certainly one of our key guiding documents. I don't quite understand the final sentence in there though:

"For example, if the hole lengths from all sets of tees on a specific hole lie within the recommended par 4 range for men, with the exception of the forward tee at 250 yards, this hole can still be designated as a par 4 hole due the way the hole is designed to be played. "

Only 250 yards is not an exception, it is a perfectly acceptable length for a men's par 4 which is what the first part of the sentence says. I get that it could be a par 3 but the word exception implies that it is supposed to not be in that range - confusing to me at least. Do you think that it meant to say something like:

"For example, if the hole lengths from most sets of tees on a specific hole lie within the recommended par 4 range for men, with the exception of the forward tee at 230 yards, this hole can still be designated as a par 4 hole due the way the hole is designed to be played." ?

 

[YandaB]

This is not strictly about allowing ladies to play further back, but it also allows gents - who for whatever reason can't hit the ball a great distance, to play further forward.


It's a totally sensible thing to do, and surely something every golf club should be looking at implementing.

Woolley Park in West Yorkshire did it a few weeks ago (James Robinsons course if you watch you tube)

"At Woolley Park we are proud that all our tees are WHS measured for both men and women. Offering red, yellow and white tee options for every player."

We are certainly looking at men being able to play the forward tees too. Thanks for the mention of Woolley Park, that's a great example of what I am looking for.

 

[YandaB]

One other point around this change is the use of language, I was wondering if we should go with Men/Women as is used in the Appendix F that Jim linked to. I think that the Males/Females used at Woolley Park just feels "off" (a bit clinical/biological) and Ladies and Gentlemen a little old fashioned. Men and Ladies are common but perhaps a halfway house. What do others think?

 

[clubchamp98]

One other point around this change is the use of language, I was wondering if we should go with Men/Women as is used in the Appendix F that Jim linked to. I think that the Males/Females used at Woolley Park just feels "off" (a bit clinical/biological) and Ladies and Gentlemen a little old fashioned. Men and Ladies are common but perhaps a halfway house. What do others think?

Go with those stupid signs you see on Toilets.

Nothing wrong with Mens and Ladies .

 

[rulefan]

One other point around this change is the use of language, I was wondering if we should go with Men/Women as is used in the Appendix F that Jim linked to. I think that the Males/Females used at Woolley Park just feels "off" (a bit clinical/biological) and Ladies and Gentlemen a little old fashioned. Men and Ladies are common but perhaps a halfway house. What do others think?

Shortly before the men's English Golf Union (EGU) merged with the ladies' organisation to form England Golf. The women's organisation changed their name from the English Ladies' Golf Association (ELGA) to the English Women's Golf Association (EWGA).

 

[jim8flog]

Thanks Jim, that is certainly one of our key guiding documents. I don't quite understand the final sentence in there though:

"For example, if the hole lengths from all sets of tees on a specific hole lie within the recommended par 4 range for men, with the exception of the forward tee at 250 yards, this hole can still be designated as a par 4 hole due the way the hole is designed to be played. "

Only 250 yards is not an exception, it is a perfectly acceptable length for a men's par 4 which is what the first part of the sentence says. I get that it could be a par 3 but the word exception implies that it is supposed to not be in that range - confusing to me at least. Do you think that it meant to say something like:

"For example, if the hole lengths from most sets of tees on a specific hole lie within the recommended par 4 range for men, with the exception of the forward tee at 230 yards, this hole can still be designated as a par 4 hole due the way the hole is designed to be played." ?

Agreed. As you say I think it is a simple typo within the example and should say something like 230 and not 250.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I just don't get this at all.

I think Crumplezone missed Ians not so subtle joke. (I presume it was a joke?)

 

[Crumplezone]

Blimey…you must live and work in rather unusual circumstances. I also have met a lot of people and can safely say that I can’t think of a single person I wouldn’t spend 10minutes with. Each to his own - though that might be on his own ?

I presume you must be far more tolerant of idiots and horrible and dull people than me. Most of the people I've ever met in my life. fit into one or more of those categories.

 

[Scoobiesnax]

I presume you must be far more tolerant of idiots and horrible and dull people than me. Most of the people I've ever met in my life. fit into one or more of those categories.

You don't sound very nice

 

[Crumplezone]

You don't sound very nice

I just don't find many other people very nice or interesting.

 

[RichA]

I had assumed that WHS index was gender neutral and course handicap was calculated relative to your HI for whichever tee you play off. Is that not the case?
It doesn't affect me - I'm just interested.
Or is this about rating a 450 yard par 4 hole as a par 5 for female golfers, for example? In which case it makes more sense to me.

 

[Swango1980]

I had assumed that WHS index was gender neutral and course handicap was calculated relative to your HI for whichever tee you play off. Is that not the case?
It doesn't affect me - I'm just interested.
Or is this about rating a 450 yard par 4 hole as a par 5 for female golfers, for example? In which case it makes more sense to me.

You are mistaken

The Course Rating and Slope are calculated differently for men and women. For example, if a set of tees has a Course Rating of 70.0 for Men, it would not be 70.0 for women, it would be higher.

 

[rulefan]

I had assumed that WHS index was gender neutral and course handicap was calculated relative to your HI for whichever tee you play off. Is that not the case?
It doesn't affect me - I'm just interested.
Or is this about rating a 450 yard par 4 hole as a par 5 for female golfers, for example? In which case it makes more sense to me.

See Swango1980's reply re Course Rating. One reason for the difference is that the standards for shot lengths are not the same. eg A scratch man's drive is rated as 250, a woman's is 220.