LIV Golf

[BubbaP]

And there lies one of the biggest obstacles that they need to get over or around when it comes to awarding of ranking points. A player out of contention for an individual win lagging a putt to make par to help his team rather than try to make the birdie to help his individual score is massive. With it not being a purely individual event how can you accurately compare it to singles strokeplay?

It's all opinion but I really don't think professionals think or work like that. They hit a putt the best they can, whether it lags, drops in, or goes by is just an outcome that announcers try to apply some retrospective 'control' rhetoric over. IMO.

 

[ColchesterFC]

It's all opinion but I really don't think professionals think or work like that. They hit a putt the best they can, whether it lags, drops in, or goes by is just an outcome that announcers try to apply some retrospective 'control' rhetoric over. IMO.

I'm fairly sure that last year one of the LIV players gave an interview after the round and said that he knew that he needed two putts to help his team and therefore he'd tried to make two putts rather than sinking his original putt. Not sure who it was but I'm sure one of the LIV watchers will be able to tell us.

 

[Mel Smooth]

And there lies one of the biggest obstacles that they need to get over or around when it comes to awarding of ranking points. A player out of contention for an individual win lagging a putt to make par to help his team rather than try to make the birdie to help his individual score is massive. With it not being a purely individual event how can you accurately compare it to singles strokeplay?

Surely that's at the players and teams discretion to do so - a player out of contention would be getting minimal points anyway - so the effect would negligible.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Surely that's at the players and teams discretion to do so - a player out of contention would be getting minimal points anyway - so the effect would negligible.

Depends how tight the leaderboard is. If the player is well adrift in last place then getting from 14 over par to 13 over isn't going to make much difference to his position. But if it's a tightly packed leaderboard and a birdie could jump him up the leaderboard by five or six places then the difference will be larger. For example if there are 8 players in a share of 4th place, but 6 shots off the lead so not challenging for the win, and a birdie would give that player outright 4th on his own then it's a much bigger difference.

EDIT - re the bit in bold - and that's exactly why they need to find a way to overcome this to compare it with purely solo golf. On the PGA tour and in the majors all the player is playing for is their own individual score. There are no other considerations, unless it's a player thinking "I need to make two putts here to make the cut" for example.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Depends how tight the leaderboard is. If the player is well adrift in last place then getting from 14 over par to 13 over isn't going to make much difference to his position. But if it's a tightly packed leaderboard and a birdie could jump him up the leaderboard by five or six places then the difference will be larger. For example if there are 8 players in a share of 4th place, but 6 shots off the lead so not challenging for the win, and a birdie would give that player outright 4th on his own then it's a much bigger difference.

Which would influence his decision to try and sink the putt rather than lag it up, right?

 

[ColchesterFC]

Which would influence his decision to try and sink the putt rather than lag it up, right?

Yes, absolutely, but for himself as an individual, not to benefit his team.

 

[Backsticks]

It's all opinion but I really don't think professionals think or work like that. They hit a putt the best they can, whether it lags, drops in, or goes by is just an outcome that announcers try to apply some retrospective 'control' rhetoric over. IMO.

So they arent really playing a team sport then ?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

So they arent really playing a team sport then ?

They are playing an individual sport with a team element.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Yes, absolutely, but for himself as an individual, not to benefit his team.

So if the player is trying to make the putt, what's the issue with ranking points?

 

[ColchesterFC]

So if the player is trying to make the putt, what's the issue with ranking points?

If you really can't see the difference between team and individual golf then there's no point carrying on this discussion. My original post wasn't even having a go at LIV, it was to highlight an issue they'll need to overcome when it comes to ranking points but as usual you jump in because there can't possibly be anything negative said about LIV.

A player lagging a putt to make par and make the cut gives them the opportunity to improve their position over the weekend and move up the leaderboard to gain more points. A player lagging a putt just so that his team can win doesn't help the individual at all, apart from his bank balance.

 

[Mel Smooth]

If you really can't see the difference between team and individual golf then there's no point carrying on this discussion. My original post wasn't even having a go at LIV, it was to highlight an issue they'll need to overcome when it comes to ranking points but as usual you jump in because there can't possibly be anything negative said about LIV.

A player lagging a putt to make par and make the cut gives them the opportunity to improve their position over the weekend and move up the leaderboard to gain more points. A player lagging a putt just so that his team can win doesn't help the individual at all, apart from his bank balance.

I'm not trying to be obtuse mate - just trying to look at this sensibly. If a player is out of contention as you originally said - the ranking points they'd sacrifice lagging a putt would be negligible.

If they're up at the sharp end and have a chance of moving into 3rd or 4th place - that will influence them to try and make the putt rather than lag one for the team.

This is all assuming all the necessary factors are in place to make this scenario happen - which will always be pretty rare. The team leaderboard is fast moving on the final day - and with the last two groups going off the 1st tee - wouldn't all the other players rounds need to be pretty much finished to give this player the perfect scenario of knowing he can lag a putt?

 

[ColchesterFC]

I'm not trying to be obtuse mate - just trying to look at this sensibly. If a player is out of contention as you originally said - the ranking points they'd sacrifice lagging a putt would be negligible.

If they're up at the sharp end and have a chance of moving into 3rd or 4th place - that will influence them to try and make the putt rather than lag one for the team.

This is all assuming all the necessary factors are in place to make this scenario happen - which will always be pretty rare. The team leaderboard is fast moving on the final day - and with the last two groups going off the 1st tee - wouldn't all the other players rounds need to be pretty much finished to give this player the perfect scenario of knowing he can lag a putt?

And yet it happened last year on LIV with a player admitting he was putting for his team rather than himself. How often does it have to happen for it not to be rare? And how many times does it happen without the player explicitly stating that's what he did?

I don't know how to make this any simpler. The OWGR are (or until recently were) a ranking of individual golfers to show who were the best players in the world. In the examples above one player is putting for himself as an INDIVIDUAL, in the other the player is putting for his TEAM.

 

[Mel Smooth]

And yet it happened last year on LIV with a player admitting he was putting for his team rather than himself. How often does it have to happen for it not to be rare? And how many times does it happen without the player explicitly stating that's what he did?

I don't know how to make this any simpler. The OWGR are (or until recently were) a ranking of individual golfers to show who were the best players in the world. In the examples above one player is putting for himself as an INDIVIDUAL, in the other the player is putting for his TEAM.

Muñoz and Brooks were in the final group. Muñoz had a tricky 15 or so foot putt, that would have run well past the hole if he’d over hit it. Did he try to make it. Yes, was he aggressive with it with the team title on the line - no.

It’s as simple as that, you’ll see players making those decisions on any tour, on any weekend.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

PGA tour, Friday, player is on the 16th, missing the cut by 10 shots. Does he care at that point about his next putt? What about the single golfer, put out first, 20 shots behind the leader who runs between shots, tries to go round in 2hrs.

I'm not seeing much difference between these scenarios and the one being discussed above. If we take everything to the nth degree it gets silly.

 

[Ethan]

Has anyone actually started to care about any team? If they drop it, would someone notice it (negatively) ?
Some minor players would get lower pay days, which are still quite huge anyway. But for fans of the sport?

They need teams as the vehicles for franchising opportunities, can't franchise individual players. But they need those brands to be pretty familiar before it can really take off, otherwise there is no point in Hilton Hotels sponsoring The Hasbeens GC.

 

[Ethan]

Muñoz and Brooks were in the final group. Muñoz had a tricky 15 or so foot putt, that would have run well past the hole if he’d over hit it. Did he try to make it. Yes, was he aggressive with it with the team title on the line - no.

It’s as simple as that, you’ll see players making those decisions on any tour, on any weekend.

Come on, even you don't believe that. it was not about choosing to play conservatively or aggressively. It was about making a decision specifically to benefit his team, and in doing so he undermined the integrity of individual competition and any ranking points that went with it. Nobody can make the same decision unless it is a combined individual/team competition. Can you point to a few similar events from the last few weekends, 'cos I missed them?

 

[Fore Right]

There is a obvious plus side to the team element as well if we are going to give a balanced view.

In the final round when a player is at the back of the field 15 shots off the lead with no chance to win , not much to play for as a true motivation but on Liv is playing his tail off because he doesnt want to let his team mates down with all 4 scores counting in the final rould.
It is possible for that players play to be the difference in the team getting on the podium or even winning.

 

[Fore Right]

Moving onto another point.

I totally agree with Jon Rahm that Liv should go to 72 holes.
For me they should go shotgun for 1st 3 rounds and then go out in leaderboard order in the last round.

Its still stays different enough to have its own identity but I believe Liv would lose a great deal of its criticism from traditional golf fans.

 

[Backsticks]

Moving onto another point.

I totally agree with Jon Rahm that Liv should go to 72 holes.
For me they should go shotgun for 1st 3 rounds and then go out in leaderboard order in the last round.

Its still stays different enough to have its own identity but I believe Liv would lose a great deal of its criticism from traditional golf fans.

I dont know that the 3 rounds 4 rounds element is that big a deal for fans.

Its the closed shop element that kills its credibility as real sport. Players play no matter how badly they are olaying. Guaranteed places in such a small field means, with the champions tour generation that populates much of it, letting in curiosities lime Kim, means there are only 10-15 relevant players. Thats not a golf tournament as we know it.

 

[Backsticks]

And to the earlier question re teams. No. Nobody is watching or caring about the teams element. Its a bad bad misjudgement by LIV to try to make teams happen. Its not going to happen. No matter how high Bryson jumps on the spot.

PIF should have bought IPL, or bought into rugby, and grown those games, if they wanted a team/franchise/merchandising/moneyising element to their sports business model. It shows how they dont understand golf that they are trying to teamify it. All it does is open it to further ridicule.