LIV Golf

[Mel Smooth]

This is a solid summation of why people ate being misled on what rates as success for LIV


#LIVGolf isn’t going to have PGA Tour equivalent US TV ratings this year, next year, or in the years after that.

We can learn a lot more about the people saying it’s a definitive failure because of that than we can about LIV Golf.

The tours ratings are the cornerstone of their product. The PGA Tour hosts 44 events per year with hundreds of sponsors and nearly half of their tournament related revenue comes from their TV deal. This revenue, coupled with sponsor deals, rely heavily on their tv ratings.

They have the same broadcast windows, on the same channels, showing what is largely the same product, for decades. They’ve built their product and scheduled their tournaments around maximizing the US TV viewership. Their entire model depends on it. 40+ times a year for years on end they are in the exact same broadcast windows on the exact same channels.

That’s not the case with LIV. They aren’t trying to maximize US TV viewership, the schedule would look vastly different if they were. Is it some part of the equation? Do they want viewership in the US to increase? Sure, of course they do, but it’s not their model and if it isn’t happening yet it’s not a sign they’ve failed. They’re leveraging international marketing budgets, utilizing capital from tourism boards, broadcasting in as many countries as possible to maximize integrated advertising. None of the LIV Golf model relies on traditional US viewership and that’s why they haven’t built the product around maximizing that.

After seeing three years of comparing the PGA Tour’s and LIV Golf’s viewership numbers it’s clear it’s just become a media strategy. One entity has had the same exact broadcast windows 40+ times a year for decades on end and works tirelessly to maximize viewership within those. The other hosts 14 events sprinkled throughout the year in varying timezones broadcasting on different channels.

Miami is LIV Golf’s next event, the first event broadcasting on network TV in traditional the traditional golf viewing period for the US. The numbers will be less than the PGA Tours from that week. Because it’s a different product and a different model.

Everybody will be using this as definitive proof of LIV Golf’s failure, ignoring everything I just stated above. When they do this, I like to think about why they so badly want me to believe them. Think about why they’re so adamant in their proclamations, why they never contextualize or discuss any of the differentiators in the two entities. Stop falling for the “Look at this thing! They’re failing! We’re doing great and they’re dying!” If all of that were true they wouldn’t feel the need to scream it from the rooftops anytime they got a split second of airtime.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1902421654686310747

 

[Dunesman]

This is a solid summation of why people ate being misled on what rates as success for LIV


#LIVGolf isn’t going to have PGA Tour equivalent US TV ratings this year, next year, or in the years after that.

We can learn a lot more about the people saying it’s a definitive failure because of that than we can about LIV Golf.

The tours ratings are the cornerstone of their product. The PGA Tour hosts 44 events per year with hundreds of sponsors and nearly half of their tournament related revenue comes from their TV deal. This revenue, coupled with sponsor deals, rely heavily on their tv ratings.

They have the same broadcast windows, on the same channels, showing what is largely the same product, for decades. They’ve built their product and scheduled their tournaments around maximizing the US TV viewership. Their entire model depends on it. 40+ times a year for years on end they are in the exact same broadcast windows on the exact same channels.

That’s not the case with LIV. They aren’t trying to maximize US TV viewership, the schedule would look vastly different if they were. Is it some part of the equation? Do they want viewership in the US to increase? Sure, of course they do, but it’s not their model and if it isn’t happening yet it’s not a sign they’ve failed. They’re leveraging international marketing budgets, utilizing capital from tourism boards, broadcasting in as many countries as possible to maximize integrated advertising. None of the LIV Golf model relies on traditional US viewership and that’s why they haven’t built the product around maximizing that.

After seeing three years of comparing the PGA Tour’s and LIV Golf’s viewership numbers it’s clear it’s just become a media strategy. One entity has had the same exact broadcast windows 40+ times a year for decades on end and works tirelessly to maximize viewership within those. The other hosts 14 events sprinkled throughout the year in varying timezones broadcasting on different channels.

Miami is LIV Golf’s next event, the first event broadcasting on network TV in traditional the traditional golf viewing period for the US. The numbers will be less than the PGA Tours from that week. Because it’s a different product and a different model.

Everybody will be using this as definitive proof of LIV Golf’s failure, ignoring everything I just stated above. When they do this, I like to think about why they so badly want me to believe them. Think about why they’re so adamant in their proclamations, why they never contextualize or discuss any of the differentiators in the two entities. Stop falling for the “Look at this thing! They’re failing! We’re doing great and they’re dying!” If all of that were true they wouldn’t feel the need to scream it from the rooftops anytime they got a split second of airtime.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1902421654686310747

Its a strange article, but it has a logic that is hard to dispute. Summarising - it was not LIVs goal to have a strong following in the US, therfore it has succeeded. It certainly doesnt have strong following, and bordline none at all, so on that bisis, it has succeeded very well indeed.
Well, yes, but I dont remember that ever being part of the narrative as LIV tried to sell itself. The other weakness is that apart from live spectator attendance in Adelaide, the rest of the world isnt following it either. So not sure whether that is another success for LIV, or whether that would be classed as a failure. The article doesnt go there.

At the moment, the premise of LIV, minus the teams, is fine. But it just failed to get the golfers to match the hype. And so it is in a phase of fake it till you make it. Putting up with people calling out the fake for what it is, is just soemthing LIV has to live with to see whether it does indeed make it, dies through lack of interest, or is just pulled in a PIF/PGAT deal where its raison d'etre evaporates.

 

[BubbaP]

This is the place for it:

But yes, the very issue here with mentions of LIV outside this thread go off the rails. Its the same one LIV is having in the mainstream media and for broadcasting : its golf in itself just isnt taken seriously yet. Any pure discussion of the golf, its players, or its tournaments, just comes across as fake and insincere, and only a handful at anyone time discuss it as if it were a real tour. Everyone else oiles in on the easy criticism. It just still has too big a credibility problem to exist outside its own bubble without constant ridicule.
This is why it does need ringfencing. It cannot stand on its own two feet for real golf discussion. Until LIV solves its handful of key issues, prime among them, having a genuine top flight field - or else stop behaving as if it does which just makes it look silly - this will not change. Solve the issues though, and they might have a product. From PIFs point of view though, simply buying into the PGAT looks a much simpler solution than trying to flog a dead horse that LIV still remains.

Not sure if you wish for a debate. Your posts on this subject generally seem heavy with your opinions, but not presented as such - kind of reminds me of poster backsticks

Here's some other opinions:
Some people like watching all sorts of golf, it does have to be one or the other.
Some people like having an option other than Sky Sports for golf.
Some people may find the field acceptable. (and really wouldn't welcome it being just the 'top 54').
Some people quite like a change from the norm for a few weeks a year.

I find it easy to mostly ignore the posturing from both 'sides' - bit like boxers promoting their fights, plenty of exaggeration etc.

Would the liv management like a stronger field - yeah I expect so.
Would they want more traction in certain markets - yeah I expect so.
Have they made mistakes - definitely.

I wouldn't presume to know where they are in the cycle/plan - last chance saloon, or not far off. But it hasn't seemed all doom & gloom recently.

I would agree that Brooks & Bryson do potentially hold some keys in the short term. Always thought attracting & keeping the better US players was an interesting dynamic. Seemed easier to be attractive to non US players.

 

[Mel Smooth]

See this won't register on the TV viewing figures, but it's still very much part of the LIV golf package.


Bryan bros, Luke Kwon, Rick Shiels - and some world class golfers - it might draw a few views.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1903099318896054632

 

[Arthur Wedge]

See this won't register on the TV viewing figures, but it's still very much part of the LIV golf package.


Bryan bros, Luke Kwon, Rick Shiels - and some world class golfers - it might draw a few views.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1903099318896054632

It’s not really professional game as a sport though is it

You tube golfers have been getting views in the millions for a while now , it’s like the hero challenges etc

it’s no different than the Sideman having a charity football match

It’s good entertainment and will have people watching

 

[Mel Smooth]

Jon Rahm interview with Joe Pompliano is now back up - nothing different or edited out from the version originally published.

 

[Fore Right]

Carlos Ortiz, Patrick Reed and Jason Kokrak Take the 3 places at The Open Championship at Royal Portrush that were on offer at the International Series event in Macao.

Sergio came up one short after a -5 final round.
He currently qualifies as he is in the top 3 in the Liv Order of merit, if he falls out of that then he will go to Final Open Qualifying again like last year.

Great that there are now more pathways for Liv Golfers to get into the majors and they will probably only grow in the coming years.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Carlos Ortiz, Patrick Reed and Jason Kokrak Take the 3 places at The Open Championship at Royal Portrush that were on offer at the International Series event in Macao.

Sergio came up one short after a -5 final round.
He currently qualifies as he is in the top 3 in the Liv Order of merit, if he falls out of that then he will go to Final Open Qualifying again like last year.

Great that there are now more pathways for Liv Golfers to get into the majors and they will probably only grow in the coming years.

Are you not worried about that cutting off the pathways for other golfers then

 

[Slab]

Are you not worried about that cutting off the pathways for other golfers then

If the Asian lads can't beat the has-beens from LIV would you really want them at the Open though

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Are you not worried about that cutting off the pathways for other golfers then

That's the pathway that's on offer. If that's a problem then maybe they need to look at a pathway for Liv golfers? Just a thought.

 

[Fore Right]

Are you not worried about that cutting off the pathways for other golfers then

LIV Golf is the second-strongest tour in the world for elite golfers, and it should have qualification pathways just as much as any other tour.


As exemptions through the OWGR expire, the major championships will want to establish new pathways to ensure top players like Cameron Smith, Dustin Johnson, and Joaquín Niemann can earn their spots through strong performances.


Over time, majors will also want to provide opportunities for rising talents like Tom McKibbin, David Puig, and Caleb Surratt.


Ultimately, it's in the majors' best interest to assemble the strongest possible fields for their events.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

LIV Golf is the second-strongest tour in the world for elite golfers, and it should have qualification pathways just as much as any other tour.


As exemptions through the OWGR expire, the major championships will want to establish new pathways to ensure top players like Cameron Smith, Dustin Johnson, and Joaquín Niemann can earn their spots through strong performances.


Over time, majors will also want to provide opportunities for rising talents like Tom McKibbin, David Puig, and Caleb Surratt.


Ultimately, it's in the majors' best interest to assemble the strongest possible fields for their events.

So all the “growing the game” etc

All that talk getting golfers from all over the world

Again what about the Asian Golfers that are now missing out

https://twitter.com/x/status/1903727843088945264

 

[Lord Tyrion]

@Arthur Wedge you keep avoiding the question. Why blame Liv golfers for taking those places when that is the only route open to them? If you want someone to complain about, look at those doing the blocking.

Open the routes to Liv golfers and then the won't need to qualify that way

The brutal answer is also, play better. Was that Koepka who said that? The Asian tour players were in the qualifying, they weren't good enough. Tough, but true.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

@Arthur Wedge you keep avoiding the question. Why blame Liv golfers for taking those places when that is the only route open to them? If you want someone to complain about, look at those doing the blocking.

Open the routes to Liv golfers and then the won't need to qualify that way

The brutal answer is also, play better. Was that Koepka who said that? The Asian tour players were in the qualifying, they weren't good enough. Tough, but true.

Surely you blame the people that caused the issues in the first place

In all this blame game some very rarely look inwards

They don’t have a pathway because they created a closed shop for the professional golfing world
They had very little intention of fitting in with the rest and wanted everything to change to suit them

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Surely you blame the people that caused the issues in the first place

In all this blame game some very rarely look inwards

They don’t have a pathway because they created a closed shop for the professional golfing world
They had very little intention of fitting in with the rest and wanted everything to change to suit them

You clearly don't see the irony in your second sentence but it's pretty evident.

Liv golfers are simply taking the route available to them. Fix that issue and the problem that you perceive disappears. Leave things as they are, that situation continues. It isn't a tricky one.

 

[Fore Right]

Again what about the Asian Golfers that are now missing out

https://twitter.com/x/status/1903727843088945264

As Rory McIlroy once famously said, "Play better."

LIV Golf’s investment in the Asian Tour and the creation of the International Series have dramatically reshaped the professional golf landscape in the region. By injecting significant funding, increasing prize money, and providing more playing opportunities, they have elevated the competitive standard and financial viability of professional golf in Asia.
This has not only benefited current players but has also paved the way for future generations to pursue golf as a career with the realistic prospect of earning a solid living.

One of the biggest arguments surrounding LIV’s involvement in golf has been whether it is truly helping to “grow the game.” The numbers in Asia tell a compelling story, participation in golf across Asia has surged in the past two years, with over 26 million people now playing the game.
This explosion in interest can be attributed to several factors, including increased media coverage, investment in grassroots programs, and the aspirational pathways created by an improved professional circuit.

Looking ahead, the impact of these changes will be most evident in the next 10–15 years.
As this new wave of golfers develops, those with the talent and dedication to turn professional will enter a far stronger and more competitive Asian Tour. The financial backing from the Public Investment Fund (PIF) has ensured that the tour continues to grow, attracting better players, bigger sponsors, and more global attention. This will create a natural progression where young Asian golfers can hone their skills at home, rather than needing to immediately chase opportunities in the U.S. or Europe.

Historically, the number of Asian golfers reaching the highest levels of the game, competing in majors and on the PGA Tour, has been relatively small.
The challenges have ranged from lack of funding and playing opportunities to limited pathways for international exposure. However, as the overall standard of play rises within Asia, so too will the number of elite players capable of competing on the world stage. Stronger competition breeds stronger players, and with more resources, better coaching, and higher stakes, the best from this growing pool will naturally emerge.

As the saying goes, a rising tide lifts all boats.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You clearly don't see the irony in your second sentence but it's pretty evident.

Liv golfers are simply taking the route available to them. Fix that issue and the problem that you perceive disappears. Leave things as they are, that situation continues. It isn't a tricky one.

The golfers left because they didn’t want to be a part of the current golf ecosystem- they wanted their own system and way of working but they still wanted all the good things of the eco system they left - and because they didn’t get their way they have used the money and jumped into others pathways

The likes of Kokrak etc struggled to qualify but playing on a lower level tour they are going to be better than the week in week out Asian tour players

For me that’s wrong and not fair on those players that do grind week in week out to try and get themselves into the big comps

If the attitude is “tough play better” - we can forget about growing the game etc and giving those other low level tours a chance

 

[Arthur Wedge]

As Rory McIlroy once famously said, "Play better."

LIV Golf’s investment in the Asian Tour and the creation of the International Series have dramatically reshaped the professional golf landscape in the region. By injecting significant funding, increasing prize money, and providing more playing opportunities, they have elevated the competitive standard and financial viability of professional golf in Asia.
This has not only benefited current players but has also paved the way for future generations to pursue golf as a career with the realistic prospect of earning a solid living.

One of the biggest arguments surrounding LIV’s involvement in golf has been whether it is truly helping to “grow the game.” The numbers in Asia tell a compelling story, participation in golf across Asia has surged in the past two years, with over 26 million people now playing the game.
This explosion in interest can be attributed to several factors, including increased media coverage, investment in grassroots programs, and the aspirational pathways created by an improved professional circuit.

Looking ahead, the impact of these changes will be most evident in the next 10–15 years.
As this new wave of golfers develops, those with the talent and dedication to turn professional will enter a far stronger and more competitive Asian Tour. The financial backing from the Public Investment Fund (PIF) has ensured that the tour continues to grow, attracting better players, bigger sponsors, and more global attention. This will create a natural progression where young Asian golfers can hone their skills at home, rather than needing to immediately chase opportunities in the U.S. or Europe.

Historically, the number of Asian golfers reaching the highest levels of the game, competing in majors and on the PGA Tour, has been relatively small.
The challenges have ranged from lack of funding and playing opportunities to limited pathways for international exposure. However, as the overall standard of play rises within Asia, so too will the number of elite players capable of competing on the world stage. Stronger competition breeds stronger players, and with more resources, better coaching, and higher stakes, the best from this growing pool will naturally emerge.

As the saying goes, a rising tide lifts all boats.

The overriding message from that is - Money

It’s all money driven and it’s that imo ruined the professional golf for many , it’s started with the PGA offering the big prize funds to get all the best golfers to play on their tour which on turn ruined the European Tour and now it’s just got worse

It’s good though that none of it has impact on grass roots golf because right now tour golf is as detached from grass roots as you can get

 

[Dunesman]

LIV Golf’s investment in the Asian Tour and the creation of the International Series have dramatically reshaped the professional golf landscape in the region. By injecting significant funding, increasing prize money, and providing more playing opportunities, they have elevated the competitive standard and financial viability of professional golf in Asia.

Yes, to a great extent, one could now look at this elevation of the Asian Tour as PIF's 'real' tour, and the LIV one the more showbiz, touring circus. Its a delicate balance for PIF. I dont think anyone would deny that AT victories are more credible, coming with greater prestige, let alone the ranking points, than the LIV tournaments themselves. The more LIV players play AT ones, the harder it becomes to make a case for the LIV tournaments at all.

 

[Fore Right]

The golfers left because they didn’t want to be a part of the current golf ecosystem- they wanted their own system and way of working but they still wanted all the good things of the eco system they left - and because they didn’t get their way they have used the money and jumped into others pathways

The likes of Kokrak etc struggled to qualify but playing on a lower level tour they are going to be better than the week in week out Asian tour players

For me that’s wrong and not fair on those players that do grind week in week out to try and get themselves into the big comps

If the attitude is “tough play better” - we can forget about growing the game etc and giving those other low level tours a chance

For the reasons outlined above, the long-term impact of PIF investment in Asian golf will be overwhelmingly positive for the region.


At present, LIV Golfers are forced to seek alternative routes to qualify for the majors. This is not a reflection of their ability but rather a consequence of the fractured state of the game. The decision to deny LIV Golfers Official World Golf Ranking (OWGR) points has artificially restricted their ability to qualify through traditional methods. This is not their fault—it is simply the fallout of the divide in professional golf.


Like it or not, LIV Golf is now an established part of the professional golf ecosystem. It is undeniably the second strongest tour in the world, featuring elite players and major winners. If the pathways to major championships remain limited, it is inevitable that top-tier players will seek out alternative qualification routes. Look at the caliber of players affected—Jason Kokrak was once ranked No. 20 in the world, Patrick Reed reached as high as No. 6, and Carlos Ortiz was ranked No. 44. These are not fringe players; they are world-class competitors who, under normal circumstances, would have clear qualification pathways.


In time, more direct qualification spots through LIV Golf will emerge—there is already one place available this year, and this number will likely grow as the system adapts. However, if a different qualification process had been granted earlier, we wouldn't be in this situation.
If, for example, 10 players were able to qualify via LIV’s standings this year, Kokrak and Ortiz would still be competing in the same event to earn their way into majors. This is the very definition of meritocracy—earning a spot based on performance, which is precisely what the PGA Tour has long championed as essential to professional golf.


Critics have often argued that LIV Golf lacks meritocracy which is fair given the low amount of spots available each year. Yet, here we have players actively trying to qualify for majors through competitive means, and they are still being criticised.
The contradiction is glaring—if meritocracy is the foundation of professional golf, then LIV Golfers should be given the same opportunities to earn their way into the biggest tournaments and they have to now go and find those opportunities wherever they are.


As I previously mentioned, golf in Asia will only continue to strengthen due to increased investment, better competition, and enhanced player development. As the talent pool deepens, future generations of Asian golfers will be even more competitive at the highest levels of the game. Denying deserving LIV players access to major championships today just results in a weaker field in major events.