LIV Golf

[Deleted member 29109]

And that’s a bad thing?

Yes

 

[Gopher]

That’s all the players want.
That’s all they’ve ever wanted.
That’s why they sign all the brand deals,do all the endorsements.
Do you really think Rory (for example) signed with TM because they offered him the best equipment?
It’s all about making the money

For some players it's all about making the money, but nobody cares whether they make £xx for Titleist, rather than £xx+1 for Taylor-Made.. I doubt whether the players either care, or need the difference in money either.

Jack made lots of money but his legacy is the number of Majors and PGA tours wins and that is what he is remembered by. Not by the number of millions he made. If players' legacy is now how much they made on a signing-on fee and prize money for coming last in a tournament then maybe that's the new normal. None of the current top 100 players in the world will be financially uncomfortable. It's a strange dichotomy... how many would swap say, $10M cash instead of winning a Major... Westy, Poulter, Casey?

 

[Mel Smooth]

For some players it's all about making the money, but nobody cares whether they make £xx for Titleist, rather than £xx+1 for Taylor-Made.. I doubt whether the players either care, or need the difference in money either.

Jack made lots of money but his legacy is the number of Majors and PGA tours wins and that is what he is remembered by. Not by the number of millions he made. If players' legacy is now how much they made on a signing-on fee and prize money for coming last in a tournament then maybe that's the new normal.

What is Seve's legacy - it's definitely not the number of PGAT wins he had. All this talk of 'legacy golf' has very shallow foundations - and while the Majors do have long history entrenched into their appeal - the PGAT really does not - it's 45 years old.


There's absolutely no justification to have elite pro golf isolated to one country, when there are other markets out there to explore, because of what has happened in the past.

 

[Hobbit]

What is Seve's legacy - it's definitely not the number of PGAT wins he had. All this talk of 'legacy golf' has very shallow foundations - and while the Majors do have long history entrenched into their appeal - the PGAT really does not - it's 45 years old.


There's absolutely no justification to have elite pro golf isolated to one country, when there are other markets out there to explore, because of what has happened in the past.

An awful of the LIV thread is opinion based plus some posters selling opinion as fact. I’d argue your opinion about Seve’s legacy. Seve was considered to be the modern golfer that broke into the PGA tour and showed fellow European golfers they could compete in the USA. It led to a number of European golfers competing there and winning there, Lyle, Faldo & Langer to name a few. Yes it was only 35 years ago but it’s a legacy that has seen European after European going to the USA and winning.

The umbrella organisations may create the vehicle from which history is derived but the don’t create a legacy, the players do that.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

What is Seve's legacy - it's definitely not the number of PGAT wins he had. All this talk of 'legacy golf' has very shallow foundations - and while the Majors do have long history entrenched into their appeal - the PGAT really does not - it's 45 years old.


There's absolutely no justification to have elite pro golf isolated to one country, when there are other markets out there to explore, because of what has happened in the past.

What a stupid statement about Seve's legacy. Does it really need spelling out in terms of majors alone
Add in his RC legacy recognised hugely not only by the European team but by the US who no longer underestimate what a motivational tool he still is
Four US tour wins (excluding the majors) in a time when the US tour was packed with top talent, Stadler, North, Crenshaw et al

It is always about majors. Monty has always said he'd swap his achievements for a major. Make no mistake Woods wanted to beat the record of major wins (he won't imo but that's another argument). It is like most sports. In the US you don't have a legacy for being divisional champs, it is Super Bowl or bust. Same with football where league titles are what clubs in all major leagues are looked at as well as CL titles

 

[Mel Smooth]

What a stupid statement about Seve's legacy. Does it really need spelling out in terms of majors alone
Add in his RC legacy recognised hugely not only by the European team but by the US who no longer underestimate what a motivational tool he still is
Four US tour wins (excluding the majors) in a time when the US tour was packed with top talent, Stadler, North, Crenshaw et al

It is always about majors. Monty has always said he'd swap his achievements for a major. Make no mistake Woods wanted to beat the record of major wins (he won't imo but that's another argument). It is like most sports. In the US you don't have a legacy for being divisional champs, it is Super Bowl or bust. Same with football where league titles are what clubs in all major leagues are looked at as well as CL titles

So he's remembered for his major wins and Ryder Cup performances both as a player and captain. When Seve is mentioned, he is not remembered for his PGAT playing history. I don't think there's anything particularly stupid about that..

 

[HomerJSimpson]

So he's remembered for his major wins and Ryder Cup performances both as a player and captain. When Seve is mentioned, he is not remembered for his PGAT playing history. I don't think there's anything particularly stupid about that..

The idea that most people's first thought when discussing golfing achievements is to go "wait, how many PGAT titles did he win?" is. Golfers are remembered firstly and foremost for their major wins and rightly so as these are the pinnacle events of the sport

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Seve is mainly remembered for his Majors, the Ryder Cup & what he did on the European Tour (50 wins, and first on the list).
After all he was European

 

[Captain_Black.]

I just don't get some peoples love for LIV full stop.
The format is rubbish.
The events are basically an exhibition.
Sure LIV have poached a few big names from the PGAT, but with the exception of maybe half a dozen genuine top class players, the rest of the field are players at the end of their career & journeymen pros.
The PGAT can move on & thrive without those players & I hope it does so.
I'm sure there are new, young upcoming players gagging to get on the PGAT & it will be exciting to see these new players develop & progress, who knows maybe another golfing superstar awaits?
There is a top class field (except McIlroy) about to tee it up at the Sentry, all the big names are there competing in a proper golf tournament, not a circus.

 

[Mel Smooth]

The idea that most people's first thought when discussing golfing achievements is to go "wait, how many PGAT titles did he win?" is. Golfers are remembered firstly and foremost for their major wins and rightly so as these are the pinnacle events of the sport

Ok. So we’re kind of on the same page then.
I was debating the validity of the ‘legacy’ argument of the PGAT.

It’s an over used argument that really doesn’t carry that much weight - it’s just that it’s been able to become the primary tour through offering purses that other tours couldn’t match.

 

[Slab]

I just don't get some peoples love for LIV full stop.
The format is rubbish.
The events are basically an exhibition.
Sure LIV have poached a few big names from the PGAT, but with the exception of maybe half a dozen genuine top class players, the rest of the field are players at the end of their career & journeymen pros.
The PGAT can move on & thrive without those players & I hope it does so.
I'm sure there are new, young upcoming players gagging to get on the PGAT & it will be exciting to see these new players develop & progress, who knows maybe another golfing superstar awaits?
There is a top class field (except McIlroy) about to tee it up at the Sentry, all the big names are there competing in a proper golf tournament, not a circus.

For as much as I'm ambivalent about which tour players play on & I'm definitely not a fan of the faux hype LIV use... If Liv is the measure for what's proper or a circus, I'm not sure we can say this weeks PGAT golf is a proper tournament either.

Limited field, no cut and a 20mil pot sounds like the Sentry has a lot in common with LIV events. If I see a player in shorts...

edit; and the 700 fedex points on offer kinda guarantees attendance from all the big boys

 

[WGCRider]

Yet it generates about 65 million dollars for the economy locally. Maybe the focus on making golf 'appointment television' is not the only factor worth considering - especially if that means washing the product out with adverts and commercials.

Quick question - when you turn up for work in the morning what get's you out of bed is it the money and job satisfaction you get or is it knowing that someone else is profiting off your work?

It's great that it generates 65m for the local economy. It's great for the people that live nearby they can buy a ticket to watch top class golf. I'd love it if it was near me. It does almost nothing to generate any income for LIV. If they want to make any real money it will all come for broadcast deals and sponsors.

 

[WGCRider]

As we have seen what’s happened over the last 18 plus months has actually put more people off watching golf outside the majors

LIV as a product still can’t attract players based on what it can offer outside the money - even their latest recruit stated he didn’t like the product

PIF ultimately want to have a say in all sports , they are paying big money to get boxing fights there and they are proving to be a flop , they are spending fortunes getting footballers to their league and no one is interested and it’s what they are trying to do with Golf. They won’t be allowed to gain any majority footing in the PGAt hence why they are looking at US businesses to provide investment and only have a minority investment for PIF but that’s not going to be what they want.

The US market is key for the sport and LIV won’t break into that , the market outside isn’t big enough to sustain any rich world tour so LIV will continue to rely on being held up for PIF .

LIV still can’t get any mainstream media , we have seen their income from last season £2-3mil media income and a total of £70mil overall isn’t going to work - they need the big sponsers , they need the media deals , they don’t have enough eyes on from the living room. They can keep on spending hundreds of millions on players but it doesn’t bring them ranking points or access into majors and it’s certainly not getting people switching on to golf and it’s why IMO PIF want to get in with the PGAT

Rory’s idea of some sort of team matchplay events at the start and end of the season looks a good idea - the top 48 players in the world have some team matchplay events , a bit like an alternative Ryder Cup etc - that would get people interested - not the nonsense that Greg Norman has dreamed up

Tour golf is at a crossroads - it’s tried the WGC events where the top 70 play more often but they didn’t work , people want to see the top players play in the majors but not in every single event and to saturate the sport - there still needs to be events for players to burst through , the underdogs , the unknowns winning from nowhere - keep the majors special and keep the regular tour events the ones for players to come through

In almost 800 pages a serious contender for the best comment on the topic.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Ok. So we’re kind of on the same page then.
I was debating the validity of the ‘legacy’ argument of the PGAT.

It’s an over used argument that really doesn’t carry that much weight - it’s just that it’s been able to become the primary tour through offering purses that other tours couldn’t match.

Didn't see too many people other than you even mentioning the legacy of PGAT wins. As usual you're now twisting what other people write to fit your agenda

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Quick question - when you turn up for work in the morning what get's you out of bed is it the money and job satisfaction you get or is it knowing that someone else is profiting off your work?

It's great that it generates 65m for the local economy. It's great for the people that live nearby they can buy a ticket to watch top class golf. I'd love it if it was near me. It does almost nothing to generate any income for LIV. If they want to make any real money it will all come for broadcast deals and sponsors.

The only way for LIV to become more than just a Saudi Exhibition Event is

Mainstream media deal
Sponsers
Ranking points
Access to majors

It’s not close to any of those at the moment

As said the tour made £70mil revenue so the loses will be over £1bn again

The talk now is that there was always a 10 year plan for LIV

Not sure when that started because PIF at first were trying to get involved with PGAT and are still doing it now

it’s a long way from being more than just somewhere that a player can earn overinflated amounts of money

 

[Deleted member 1147]

For as much as I'm ambivalent about which tour players play on & I'm definitely not a fan of the faux hype LIV use... If Liv is the measure for what's proper or a circus, I'm not sure we can say this weeks PGAT golf is a proper tournament either.

Limited field, no cut and a 20mil pot sounds like the Sentry has a lot in common with LIV events. If I see a player in shorts...

edit; and the 700 fedex points on offer kinda guarantees attendance from all the big boys

The main difference is that everyone has qualified to be there.

 

[Beezerk]

In almost 800 pages a serious contender for the best comment on the topic.

Yes, it was an excellent copy and paste

 

[Deleted member 15344]

the team event is interesting in regards what Rory said

I think if it was

8 events hosted in

US
South America
UK
Mainland Europe
Middle East
Africa
Asia
Aus

Then you had the top 48 players in the world teamed up and then play matchplay against each or maybe top players from each of the main tours

It’s all under the umbrella of PGAT , Asian Tour , European Tour , Sunshine Tour and Aus Tour

Played 4 weeks around Feb and then four weeks around November time

PIF will be the main sponsor for it

That’s maybe something that people would get on board with - it will give PIF a foothold in the sport and have the best players playing a bit more globally

 

[Mel Smooth]

Quick question - when you turn up for work in the morning what get's you out of bed is it the money and job satisfaction you get or is it knowing that someone else is profiting off your work?

It's great that it generates 65m for the local economy. It's great for the people that live nearby they can buy a ticket to watch top class golf. I'd love it if it was near me. It does almost nothing to generate any income for LIV. If they want to make any real money it will all come for broadcast deals and sponsors.

It doesn’t need to generate wealth for LIV yet.
And while the series is funded from the PIF, they don’t need sponsors. At this stage they’re building up the value of the product so when sponsors come onboard, the revenue is optimised. This is all basic stuff - and the Saudis committed to funding LIV for x number of years (can’t remember what it was off the top of my head)

As for TV deals, they’ll come - if the merger happens, then LIV have access to those deals.
If the merger doesn’t happen, they’ll negotiate their own - it will just take a little longer to get them in place.

LIV is 22 events old. When they’ve had 100, the whole pro golf world will look completely different.

 

[Slab]

The main difference is that everyone has qualified to be there.

Your opinion of course but that’s not been my reading of the theme of this thread when folk are listing the virtues of pgat and the deficiencies of liv. Entry qualification is there but it hasn’t been the No1 LIV/PGAT main differentiator (but i acknowledge it may be for you)

In no order, it’s been:
Doing it for the money
No cut
Limited field
Irrelevant teams
54 holes
Shotgun
Entry Route to play
Wearing Shorts

Depending on how each person chooses to list these for themselves, the Sentry could easily be a similar beast to liv exhibition events