LIV Golf

[IanM]

So, to recap 14k posts:

I say Tom-arto, you say Tom-ay-toe, let's call the whole thing off!

You're welcome!

 

[wjemather]

In your head, but not in the heads of those that matter.

Even Peter Dawson doesn't seem to think they're credible at the moment.

 

[Backsticks]

Thinking about it more Rick and guy are very much not overly keen on Liv, even talk it down

They are real people with real names. It is most unlikely they would see anything good in LIV.

It has been remarkable throughout the last 18 months, that there have been plenty of LIV puffs on social media, twitters, forums, X's from BobbyGolf3835 and his ilk, and reposting of such tweets, often without comment or genuine human opinion. Frequently sparked off but some tweet / insider / good authority, but a like the end of a rainbow, no solid origin for the supposed information is never identifiable.
But when it comes to real people, I dont think I have met, heard, or even met someone who claims to know a real person who likes the LIV proposition. Not even a lukewarm give it a go, maybe golf on youtube is what we have always wanted, or, a showdown between the Dodgers and the Bumpers should be great golf. Nada. Nothing. But plenty of people, if they even think about it anymore, who think it utter tripe. Its curious.

 

[Mel Smooth]

https://x.com/livgolf_league/status/1714657426430157103?s=20

Got to fancy Koepka to take the win - and the Smash team to edge it.

Looking at all the Friday matches, the winteams that got the picks look like they should all come on top.

Be interesting to see who joins Brooks next year, his little brother and Matt Wolff don’t look like they will be with him after the weekend.

 

[AussieKB]

Please don’t bite, that’s what they’re aiming for, get you banned and get the thread closed, rise above it

They do not want the thread closed, then their little lives would have nothing to complain about.

 

[Mel Smooth]

This is interesting and worth watching until the end. Phil re-states the points he made last week about the OWGR rankings being essential to the TV contracts of the PGAT, and that the Majors could/should look to giving LIV players spots by other means. If they do - will people conclude that Phil is right and the OWGR rankings are being used as a revenue tool for the PGAT, over ranking players accurately.. ?

I know some folk won't have a word of what Phil says, but he's pretty measured here and surrounded by most of the other team captains - I'm guessing they've discussed this at length. Personally, I'd think he'd be on dodgy legal ground if he was making these claims totally unfounded..

https://x.com/mrmckee/status/1714744078150123789?s=20

 

[Backsticks]

This is interesting and worth watching until the end. Phil re-states the points he made last week about the OWGR rankings being essential to the TV contracts of the PGAT, and that the Majors could/should look to giving LIV players spots by other means. If they do - will people conclude that Phil is right and the OWGR rankings are being used as a revenue tool for the PGAT, over ranking players accurately.. ?

I know some folk won't have a word of what Phil says, but he's pretty measured here and surrounded by most of the other team captains - I'm guessing they've discussed this at length. Personally, I'd think he'd be on dodgy legal ground if he was making these claims totally unfounded..

https://x.com/mrmckee/status/1714744078150123789?s=20

I dont think people will conclude that. Most people understand clearly that ranking a handful of players in a closed corral with those in the open tours cannot be credibly done. Whatever the motivation, there is no useful ranking of a closed shop. What PM says may even be true. But people would have less regard for OWGR tables if LIV golfer were given points. It is slightly skewed that they arent. But would be more skewed if they were.
Its imperfect. But the lesser of two evils and all that.

 

[doublebogey7]

This is interesting and worth watching until the end. Phil re-states the points he made last week about the OWGR rankings being essential to the TV contracts of the PGAT, and that the Majors could/should look to giving LIV players spots by other means. If they do - will people conclude that Phil is right and the OWGR rankings are being used as a revenue tool for the PGAT, over ranking players accurately.. ?

I know some folk won't have a word of what Phil says, but he's pretty measured here and surrounded by most of the other team captains - I'm guessing they've discussed this at length. Personally, I'd think he'd be on dodgy legal ground if he was making these claims totally unfounded..

https://x.com/mrmckee/status/1714744078150123789?s=20

Can you please translate that for me Mel, sounded to me like a lot of waffle and double speak.

If he is trying to say that the Majors could offer places to LiV players in addition to their current qualifying criteria in order to not effect the PGAT revenue's. Then that is patently not the case. If LiV were to be offered further places then some of those players may gain OWGR points by making the cut, consequently that would affect PGAT revenue's. That is assuming that Phil is right when he says that TV contracts are reliant on OWGR points, and I have no reason to believe that thay are not.

In any case if Major's want to give LiV players further opportunities to play in their events why did they not just grant them points, as it was solely within their gift.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Can you please translate that for me Mel, sounded to me like a lot of waffle and double speak.

If he is trying to say that the Majors could offer places to LiV players in addition to their current qualifying criteria in order to not effect the PGAT revenue's. Then that is patently not the case. If LiV were to be offered further places then some of those players may gain OWGR points by making the cut, consequently that would affect PGAT revenue's. That is assuming that Phil is right when he says that TV contracts are reliant on OWGR points, and I have no reason to believe that thay are not.

In any case if Major's want to give LiV players further opportunities to play in their events why did they not just grant them points, as it was solely within their gift.

Well there’s a few ifs and buts in that argument.
Some LIV players have major exemptions, so if they make the cut, they would get OWGR points anyway.
If more LIV players were given major spaces, and if they made the cut, they would also get OWGR points.

But, if LIV players were getting OWGR points on a regular basis, that would mean the points being given to PGA players would be lower. Remember 23 of the top 100 on Data Golf are LIV players. There are just 5 LIV player (and falling) in the top 100 on OWGR. If the PGAT’s contractual obligations are to provide events with a minimum OWGR field rating, giving as many points as possible to their own players while ensuring players on other tours can’t, or have difficulty accumulating them - will help the PGAT meet that requirement.

That should hopefully address your last point, but in essence, if the majors can find a way to give LIV players access to majors without utilising OWGR points, everybody is happy …

 

[Backsticks]

I think the whole focus on points by LIV and its acolytes/bots, is an attempt to gain some authoritative credibility as it has been unable to earn that on merit from the wider golfing world. Its failure to establish itself as real golf in the eyes of the public has heightened its need for points as a tool to make its claim to being relevant top flight golf.
But that is cart before the horse. Be credible golf first. The points will fillow.

 

[doublebogey7]

Well there’s a few ifs and buts in that argument.
Some LIV players have major exemptions, so if they make the cut, they would get OWGR points anyway.
If more LIV players were given major spaces, and if they made the cut, they would also get OWGR points.

But, if LIV players were getting OWGR points on a regular basis, that would mean the points being given to PGA players would be lower. Remember 23 of the top 100 on Data Golf are LIV players. There are just 5 LIV player (and falling) in the top 100 on OWGR. If the PGAT’s contractual obligations are to provide events with a minimum OWGR field rating, giving as many points as possible to their own players while ensuring players on other tours can’t, or have difficulty accumulating them - will help the PGAT meet that requirement.

That should hopefully address your last point, but in essence, if the majors can find a way to give LIV players access to majors without utilising OWGR points, everybody is happy …

Are you saying here that LiV players could be offered Major places but would not get OWGR points when playing in them?? Otherwise your post makes no sense.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Are you saying here that LiV players could be offered Major places but would not get OWGR points when playing in them?? Otherwise your post makes no sense.

No, I’m suggesting they’ll be given places in majors by an alternative method to the OWGR.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

With the OWGR decision now made will the majors create a pathway for Liv Golfers into the majors via Liv ?
The majors have decided that Liv cant be awarded OWGR points due to the format but that doesnt mean they dont want Liv golfers in their events

There are enough top players on Liv that the majors will want in their events to boast the strongest field but as you can see below many are all exempt till at least 2025 anyway.

For arguments sake lets say the the Open, US Open or USPGA declared that the top 10 (If not already exempt) on Livs end of season 2023 order of merit would qualify for the following seasons 2024 event.
This has been mentioned by some media outlets like golf channel recently as a possible solution.
This would mean that next year the qualifying Liv golfers would be

Exempt
Brooks Koepka - 2023 USPGA
Cam Smith - 2022 Open
Dustin Jonhson - 2020 Masters
Bryson Dechambeau - 2020 US Open
Phil Mickleson - USPGA 2021


Next 10 Non Exempt Qualifying via Liv Standings
1 Talor Gooch (Best Major Finish T14 2022 Masters)
6 Patrick Reed (Best Major Finish 2018 Masters Winner)
7 Harold Varner (Best Major Finish T23 2022 Masters)
8.Mito Perieria (Best Major Finish T3 2022 USPGA)
9 Brandon Grace (Best Major Finish 3rd 2015 USPGA)
10 Charles Howell III (Best Major Finish T10 2003 USPGA)
11 Sebastian Munoz (Best Major Finish T14 2022 US Open)
12 Peter Uihlien (Best Major Finish T44 2017 Open)
13 Anaban Lahiri (Best Major Finish T5 2015 USPGA)
14 Dean Burmester (Best Major Finish T11 2022 Open)

This shows that the Liv players the majors most want in their events right now are already going to be there thru 2025 at least anyway.
No rush whatsoever for the majors to make a decision of integrating Liv golfers and also need to wait till the end of 2023 to see if a definitive agreement has been agreed and how that all looks.

 

[WGCRider]

Well there’s a few ifs and buts in that argument.
Some LIV players have major exemptions, so if they make the cut, they would get OWGR points anyway.
If more LIV players were given major spaces, and if they made the cut, they would also get OWGR points.

But, if LIV players were getting OWGR points on a regular basis, that would mean the points being given to PGA players would be lower. Remember 23 of the top 100 on Data Golf are LIV players. There are just 5 LIV player (and falling) in the top 100 on OWGR. If the PGAT’s contractual obligations are to provide events with a minimum OWGR field rating, giving as many points as possible to their own players while ensuring players on other tours can’t, or have difficulty accumulating them - will help the PGAT meet that requirement.

That should hopefully address your last point, but in essence, if the majors can find a way to give LIV players access to majors without utilising OWGR points, everybody is happy …

I don't know about that - LIV's best player missed 3 cuts in the majors last year and then went back to only playing with his new friends and was the champion?

 

[Swango1980]

With the OWGR decision now made will the majors create a pathway for Liv Golfers into the majors via Liv ?
The majors have decided that Liv cant be awarded OWGR points due to the format but that doesnt mean they dont want Liv golfers in their events

There are enough top players on Liv that the majors will want in their events to boast the strongest field but as you can see below many are all exempt till at least 2025 anyway.

For arguments sake lets say the the Open, US Open or USPGA declared that the top 10 (If not already exempt) on Livs end of season 2023 order of merit would qualify for the following seasons 2024 event.
This has been mentioned by some media outlets like golf channel recently as a possible solution.
This would mean that next year the qualifying Liv golfers would be

Exempt
Brooks Koepka - 2023 USPGA
Cam Smith - 2022 Open
Dustin Jonhson - 2020 Masters
Bryson Dechambeau - 2020 US Open
Phil Mickleson - USPGA 2021


Next 10 Non Exempt Qualifying via Liv Standings
1 Talor Gooch (Best Major Finish T14 2022 Masters)
6 Patrick Reed (Best Major Finish 2018 Masters Winner)
7 Harold Varner (Best Major Finish T23 2022 Masters)
8.Mito Perieria (Best Major Finish T3 2022 USPGA)
9 Brandon Grace (Best Major Finish 3rd 2015 USPGA)
10 Charles Howell III (Best Major Finish T10 2003 USPGA)
11 Sebastian Munoz (Best Major Finish T14 2022 US Open)
12 Peter Uihlien (Best Major Finish T44 2017 Open)
13 Anaban Lahiri (Best Major Finish T5 2015 USPGA)
14 Dean Burmester (Best Major Finish T11 2022 Open)

This shows that the Liv players the majors most want in their events right now are already going to be there thru 2025 at least anyway.
No rush whatsoever for the majors to make a decision of integrating Liv golfers and also need to wait till the end of 2023 to see if a definitive agreement has been agreed and how that all looks.

But, would it be 10 qualifying LIV golfers PLUS those already qualified. Or, simply those in the Top 10 in LIV, but no more if some of those are already exempt anyway?

If it is as you suggest, that is 15 LIV golfers. I appreciate the Majors would like to have some of the top LIV guys, no one argues they were not up there before LIV. But, we're scraping the barrel if the likes of Munoz, Uihlien, Lahiri and Burmester are qualifying, simply by finishing just outside the Top 10 in LIV. Generally, those guys have qualified less than 50% of Majors that they could have done in the past, and the Majors they have played in, a lot of them miss the cut more often than not.

I could perhaps see something like automatic LIV qualifiers plus top 5 of the rest, or anyone in the Top 10 in LIV that hasn't already qualified by other means

 

[WGCRider]

With the OWGR decision now made will the majors create a pathway for Liv Golfers into the majors via Liv ?
The majors have decided that Liv cant be awarded OWGR points due to the format but that doesnt mean they dont want Liv golfers in their events

There are enough top players on Liv that the majors will want in their events to boast the strongest field but as you can see below many are all exempt till at least 2025 anyway.

For arguments sake lets say the the Open, US Open or USPGA declared that the top 10 (If not already exempt) on Livs end of season 2023 order of merit would qualify for the following seasons 2024 event.
This has been mentioned by some media outlets like golf channel recently as a possible solution.
This would mean that next year the qualifying Liv golfers would be

Exempt
Brooks Koepka - 2023 USPGA
Cam Smith - 2022 Open
Dustin Jonhson - 2020 Masters
Bryson Dechambeau - 2020 US Open
Phil Mickleson - USPGA 2021


Next 10 Non Exempt Qualifying via Liv Standings
1 Talor Gooch (Best Major Finish T14 2022 Masters)
6 Patrick Reed (Best Major Finish 2018 Masters Winner)
7 Harold Varner (Best Major Finish T23 2022 Masters)
8.Mito Perieria (Best Major Finish T3 2022 USPGA)
9 Brandon Grace (Best Major Finish 3rd 2015 USPGA)
10 Charles Howell III (Best Major Finish T10 2003 USPGA)
11 Sebastian Munoz (Best Major Finish T14 2022 US Open)
12 Peter Uihlien (Best Major Finish T44 2017 Open)
13 Anaban Lahiri (Best Major Finish T5 2015 USPGA)
14 Dean Burmester (Best Major Finish T11 2022 Open)

This shows that the Liv players the majors most want in their events right now are already going to be there thru 2025 at least anyway.
No rush whatsoever for the majors to make a decision of integrating Liv golfers and also need to wait till the end of 2023 to see if a definitive agreement has been agreed and how that all looks.

So put differently the majors are getting the 4 players they want in Koepka, Johnson, Bryson and Phil. For the rest most people wouldn't know them if they were standing next to them so they aren't losing out.
Seems like a win for the majors. Meanwhile people playing on the PGA tour get to build their reputation every week in tournaments people actually watch.

 

[WGCRider]

A good equivalent to LIV would be players that went on rebel cricket and rugby tours to South Africa. They were big names when they went but mostly they weren't missed when they weren't allowed back.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

So put differently the majors are getting the 4 players they want in Koepka, Johnson, Bryson and Phil. For the rest most people wouldn't know them if they were standing next to them so they aren't losing out.
Seems like a win for the majors. Meanwhile people playing on the PGA tour get to build their reputation every week in tournaments people actually watch.

Yes for now the top Liv players the majors and fans want to see compete with all the other top players in the world are going to be there till 2025 at least regardless of any structure put or not put in place for Liv golfers to access the majors.

 

[doublebogey7]

No, I’m suggesting they’ll be given places in majors by an alternative method to the OWGR.

Then I'll ask again, why did the OWGR not give points to LiV or are you suggesting some sort of conspiracy.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Then I'll ask again, why did the OWGR not give points to LiV or are you suggesting some sort of conspiracy.

If you’ve watched the video of Phil, it’s quite clear his position is that there is more to the OWGR decision than the reasons given, and that the aforementioned TV contracts are a factor.
I’m just relaying that information on here.
My view is that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that adds weight to Phil’s view, but nothing conclusive of course.
Also, if the Majors do give places to LIV on a “top ten qualify” basis for example - it further adds to that circumstantial evidence.

If they’d given them OWGR points, they would have damaged the PGAT revenue (allegedly) .