LIV Golf

[Swango1980]

Calm down - I’m definitely not throwing my toys out of the pram.


Ok, what did Rory achieve by saying he hated LIV?

You can’t go questioning one person saying something derogatory about Rory (wrongly imho) but then try and defend Rory saying he hates LIV..

Either people can be critical from both sides, or they can’t..

I can, and I did. Imurg summarised why I can nicely.

I guess you must be pretty sad for a number of reasons. I seem to remember pro LIV comments (probably by yourself, as usual) explaining LIV was great because the PGAT doesn't have a monopoly on golf. Seemed to suggest a competing golf tour was good for golf.

Well, I wonder what happens after this merger. Looks like it will truly own golf to a much wider extent than the PGAT ever did.

I'm sure comments like that will be well forgotten, as if they never happened

 

[Mel Smooth]

There's being critical and there's personal insults......subtle difference

Indeed, and the forum rules prohibit me from repeating some of the insults Rory has been recorded as saying.

 

[WGCRider]

But you’re just highlighting a massive issue with the PGAT with point 1, it does not suit the European or Asian markets. LIV can , and has a shorter timespan, and is much more compatible with in game betting, something that the Asian market lives.

I sort of agree with this it is an issue. However it's not a massive issue. It does suit European cause we are used to seeing the conclusion at circa 10pm on a Sunday night. It is an issue for Asia - I know when I'm in Asia I don't even watch the majors. But if you can only appease one audience who are you going to choose America and Europe or Asia and Australia?

 

[Mel Smooth]

I sort of agree with this it is an issue. However it's not a massive issue. It does suit European cause we are used to seeing the conclusion at circa 10pm on a Sunday night. It is an issue for Asia - I know when I'm in Asia I don't even watch the majors. But if you can only appease one audience who are you going to choose America and Europe or Asia and Australia?

When I lived in Spain, most US based golf tournaments finished post midnight, and Europe has 4 time zones…

And why do you need to choose one audience? Traditional golf doesn’t lend itself to global viewing, but a shotgun start is much more compliant. I know I’ve watched a significant amount of all the LIV events, from Australia, Singapore, Europe, Saudi Arabia, and the USA.

 

[Swango1980]

One of the big positives to come out of this:

In the not too distant future, this LIV thread can finally be locked down. With the merger, there will be no LIV or PGAT or DP World Tour exactly as we know them. There will be some unified organisation with no rival tours.

 

[WGCRider]

And there is no evidence that anybody cares about franchise team golf because it is a new concept…

The Davis cup has been been around for over 120 years and I'd suggest it's perhaps only the most hardcore tennis fans that could name last years winner. Casual fans will know who won Wimbledon or the Aussie Open. Why? Cause nobody cares about teams in individual sports.

 

[Swango1980]

The Davis cup has been been around for over 120 years and I'd suggest it's perhaps only the most hardcore tennis fans that could name last years winner. Casual fans will know who won Wimbledon or the Aussie Open. Why? Cause nobody cares about teams in individual sports.

True. And, isn't the Davis Cup Country versus Country? At the very least, there is a reason for people to attach themselves to a team, national pride.

Although, perhaps if Great Britain were called "The Bulldogs", Australia "The Sharks" and Sweden "The Vikings", then it would take off?

 

[WGCRider]

When I lived in Spain, most US based golf tournaments finished post midnight, and Europe has 4 time zones…

And why do you need to choose one audience? Traditional golf doesn’t lend itself to global viewing, but a shotgun start is much more compliant. I know I’ve watched a significant amount of all the LIV events, from Australia, Singapore, Europe, Saudi Arabia, and the USA.

You do need to choose otherwise nobody is watching. The audience for live sport is very different to the audience for highlights. Why do you think the Australian open tennis routinely has matches finishing at 2am? Is it cause Australians like a late night or is it cause that's the time that Americans are in front of their TV?

 

[Mel Smooth]

You do need to choose otherwise nobody is watching. The audience for live sport is very different to the audience for highlights. Why do you think the Australian open tennis routinely has matches finishing at 2am? Is it cause Australians like a late night or is it cause that's the time that Americans are in front of their TV?

Youre missing a significant point, the fastest growing golf market is in Asia, the same place where most people in the world live.

Is it not beyond the realms, that the PGAT continues to satisfy the US, and Western European older demographic, and LIV (or an incarnation of) meets the needs of everybody else, which could be a significantly larger number than those watching the PGAT etc?

 

[TheDiablo]

But you’re just highlighting a massive issue with the PGAT with point 1, it does not suit the European or Asian markets. LIV can , and has a shorter timespan, and is much more compatible with in game betting, something that the Asian market lives.

And there is no evidence that anybody cares about franchise team golf because it is a new concept…

Bear in mind, Rory and Tiger also see some value in team golf, it underpins their TWGR concept.,

LIV was (is?) running at approx 10% of betting volume in head to heads with PGAT events that run on the same week (those with weaker fields...), and about 4% of a PGAT elevated event. It isnt touching the sides of the gambling markets

 

[Mel Smooth]

LIV was (is?) running at approx 10% of betting volume in head to heads with PGAT events that run on the same week (those with weaker fields...), and about 4% of a PGAT elevated event. It isnt touching the sides of the gambling markets

I’m surprised it’s that high, given it’s infancy.

 

[TheDiablo]

I don't really understand why Alan Shipnuck's word is suddenly being taken as gospel by some. His FirePit Collective venture (of which he co-owns ) started great in terms of content and direction, but ultimately that direction failed financially as nobody was consuming his output. Mass layoffs and restructuring had to happen and a different direction has been suddenly taken in the last few months.

He now HAS to become controversial and click bait in order to try and drive eyeballs on him. He is basically the GB News of the golf world (oh wait, begins to make sense now...)

 

[Deleted member 15717]

The Saudi-PGA Tour Golf Deal Isn't Going to Happen

The merger or alliance between the PGA Tour and the Saudi's LIV Golf is comically illegal, and it will not happen in its current form. Something about this deal smells off.

www.thebignewsletter.com

worth a read from someone who is pretty clued up and removed from the world of golf.

the sign up box is a bit annoying, but you can scroll, and it disappears a bit.

some of the highlights:

But I’m just baffled. There is no way this merger happens in its current form, as it’s obviously creating an illegal monopoly. There is a lot of grey area in antitrust law, but when two companies want to merge to a monopoly, and announce it as such, that’s a violation of black letter law. In fact, this deal is so wildly and comically against the law that I actually don’t think it is intended to close. If I had to guess, I would say it’s a desperate move by the Saudis to keep their dirty laundry out of an American courtroom in a separate but related case. Indeed, the more I look into it, the more baffled I become.

I’ll go to the head of the PGA tour, Jay Monahan, who said that this merger is good for his organization because it allows them to “take the competitor off the board.” When a corporate leader publicly says the point of a merger is to monopolize a market, I can only imagine what’s in the private emails. Antitrust scholar Herb Hovenkamp, who is generally monopoly friendly, said this merger would be problematic in at least three markets: (1) live attendance, (2) TV broadcast rights and advertising, and (3) golfer compensation and terms. Given that LIV Golf and the PGA have been bidding aggressively for the services of golfers, it seems pretty obvious that this deal will monopolize at least one of those markets.

One very clear point for the PGA is that whatever this deal is, it is intended to remove a competitor. And legally, if not procedurally, that’s what matters. As a result, most antitrust lawyers who have commented on this deal publicly, from the far right to far left, have scoffed at the very notion that this deal, as announced, is legal.
Former White House competition chief Tim Wu, for instance, tweeted that “While many facts missing, more I look more I doubt the proposed PGA - LIV merger will survive serious antitrust scrutiny, not to mention potential CFIUS review.” Libertarian antitrust lawyer Josh Wright mocked the combination, saying, “Friends don’t let friends merge or contract, combine, or conspire with rivals without antitrust counsel.” He also pointed out that “there is a lot here that is unusual.”
And Kostya Medvedovsky, who coined the term ‘hipster antitrust,’ was in disbelief. “I am a bit confused how they could have plausibly done this without antitrust counsel, given they’re currently in antitrust dispute/investigation? Feels a bit too incredible.” Senator Richard Blumenthal has already asked for the DOJ to intervene.
Katie Van Dyck, an antitrust lawyer and colleague at my organization, made a couple of relevant points, noting that “this deal is one of the most brazen mergers to monopoly in recent history.” Van Dyck also pointed out that it’s not just the Department of Justice with jurisdiction, but the U.K. and European Union enforcers. Unless Congress grants an antitrust exemption, as it did for the merger of the AFL and NFL football leagues in 1966, this deal is just crazy.

There are a lot of other possibilities. Maybe they’ll find a way to do some sort of divestment, or change the terms to make the deal palatable, though honestly I can’t see how. But when you’re dealing with Saudi Arabia, Donald Trump and global sports, you can get to things like money laundering, arms dealing, espionage, and all sorts of weird conspiratorial stuff. I don’t like speculating on that, because it’s like seeing ripples on an ocean and trying to guess what’s happening beneath. But one thing I can say is that this deal, in its current form, doesn’t make any sense.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Well why don’t you answer all of them?

Because some of them make no sense and I can’t be bothered deciphering them.

Point me to the question you want answered and I will.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It's not a "minority" anything at all. Al-Rumayyan is the Chairman of the new company that owns the whole commercial rights of the PGAT, DPWT and LIV. Let's see who own the new company when it is set up.

The whole "the PGAT have more seats on the board of the new company" is more sports washing for the short term to make it more palatable for the American public to think that the PGAT is still in charge. The PIF aren't investing billions into this to get a single seat on the PGAT board, they just bought both tours and it's being marketed as a merger.

It probably won't be long before they start to push more into American sports and buy an NBA or NFL franchise.

So as I said they don’t own the PGAT and right now there is nothing that states they will do

They will invest in the new commercial entity that will exist but just as with the future of the LIV events it’s all unknown until the details appear

 

[Mel Smooth]

Because some of them make no sense and I can’t be bothered deciphering them.

Point me to the question you want answered and I will.

Don’t bother.

You’ve already shown your true intentions.

 

[Mel Smooth]

So as I said they don’t own the PGAT and right now there is nothing that states they will do

They will invest in the new commercial entity that will exist but just as with the future of the LIV events it’s all unknown until the details appear

Reports that the PGAT’s tax exempt status is now under scrutiny.

How would that affect the tour going forwards?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Reports that the PGAT’s tax exempt status is now under scrutiny.

How would that affect the tour going forwards?

Who knows they will have to pay some tax like normal people

 

[WGCRider]

Youre missing a significant point, the fastest growing golf market is in Asia, the same place where most people in the world live.

Is it not beyond the realms, that the PGAT continues to satisfy the US, and Western European older demographic, and LIV (or an incarnation of) meets the needs of everybody else, which could be a significantly larger number than those watching the PGAT etc?

So what's been holding the Asian tour back all these years? Why isn't that a super smash hit? Where are all the good players coming out of Asia owning everyone on the PGA tour?
Even on womens golf where the best players are Asian - the move to the LPGA.

 

[Beezerk]

No
He’s already a hypocrite whatever he does from now on.
He said it yesterday “if you can’t beat them then join them “.
Morals?he has none.

In fairness to Rory what option does he have, he doesn’t like it and has said so but he can’t just retire now that would be proper toys out of the pram lol. I feel sorry for him, he’s been pushed in front of the cameras while the PGAT CEO goes into hiding, he’s said some dumb things but in a way I admire him for not doing a politicians speech.