LIV Golf

[PJ87]

It’s called giving an opinion as opposed to yourself just posting snide remarks about posters and what they post - that’s your sole contribution

an opinion you consistently present as fact and expect to be listened to by "what you read on twitter"

snide remarks only really "snide" if they arent true..

 

[Beezerk]

It’s called giving an opinion as opposed to yourself just posting snide remarks about posters and what they post - that’s your sole contribution


Oh so you don’t have them to hand ?

Sorry looked at google and can’t find the sources you are talking about - surely if you are going to pull someone up on their sources and reasoning then would you not expect to provide the counter argument?


It seems that “google it” is because someone can’t provide it themselves ?


What sources can I use and can’t I use ?

Why when Waugh questions if the model can be sustainable it’s valid but when other question that it’s not valid - Waugh was one of the sources I used - so is that all ok

Phil, he could post a link from the President of the USA about it and you’d still argue the toss as to why it’s wrong. Maybe that’s why no one wants to get into such a tangle with you?
Chill my friend

 

[Deleted member 15344]

And that may be true for a large number of golf spectators but I suspect the general angle @Kaz was raising is should say Alex Smalley & Patrick Rodgers be in the field instead of say Howell III, Uihlein or B Grace.
It is tricky and no system is perfect
(For clarity no-one needs to post "they made the decision etc.... ")

I guess when looking at those three players alone in regards their major records and especially Howell and Uihlein

Uihlein- no top 25’s and only 3 cuts made in the 11 majors he has played since 2011

Howell - 1 top 10 in the 50 majors he has played in since 2001

I don’t think they will be missed at either major , they didn’t pull up trees when they were on the PGAT

Grace record is certainly a lot better and has been consistent over a few majors and prob should have won one and it’s still at the age and Level that could see him challenge for a major and is a miss at the major

 

[Crow]

Awkward at Oak Hill Yesterday..

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658611709471227904

Please advise, for the irregular Pro golf follower, who is in the picture and what is the significance of it all?
I had a quick look at it on Twitter but it was all over my head.

 

[wjemather]

Oh so you don’t have them to hand ?

Sorry looked at google and can’t find the sources you are talking about - surely if you are going to pull someone up on their sources and reasoning then would you not expect to provide the counter argument?


It seems that “google it” is because someone can’t provide it themselves ?


What sources can I use and can’t I use ?

Why when Waugh questions if the model can be sustainable it’s valid but when other question that it’s not valid - Waugh was one of the sources I used - so is that all ok

Even a simple search for 'pif liv business plan' turns up multiple articles from a range of sources on page one of the results.

You didn't question whether the business plan could be sustainable/profitable; you said there was no plan to make a profit. That is why Waugh's concerns are valid, and your statement was not.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Please advise, for the irregular Pro golf follower, who is in the picture and what is the significance of it all?
I had a quick look at it on Twitter but it was all over my head.

Jay Monahan ( Commissioner of the PGA Tour) & Phil Mickleson (Thought by many to be the PGA Tour Slayer)

 

[Swango1980]

To be fair Rory has had a big change in rhetoric around Liv this week.

In his press conference he shut down every question about Liv where as in the past he couldnt help but stoke the fire along with many others on both sides of the divide.

I'm pretty sure he has said what he needs to say now. Unlike people on this forum, he is probably sensible enough to know that he no longer needs to repeat himself and go round in circles. Perhaps he has has a look at this thread, and the thought of turning into some in here terrifies him

 

[r0wly86]

You’re comparing a company to the Saudis with a bottomless pit of money, saying aaah it’s failed or aah they can’t continue it for money reasons doesn’t work for me. I’m happy to be proven wrong in x amount of years though.

also depends if they think it is working as sportswashing

there will be cost benefit analysis I am sure. If LIV was having a great effect on Saudi Arabia's reputation then they may be willing to sink billions per year keeping it going as it serves a purpose.

If it isn't making much difference globally or even having a reverse effect, then they may not be so willing

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Even a simple search for 'pif liv business plan' turns up multiple articles from a range of sources on page one of the results.

You didn't question whether the business plan could be sustainable/profitable; you said there was no plan to make a profit. That is why Waugh's concerns are valid, and your statement was not.

Ok came across these two articles from your suggested Google search

Now I’m not sure if they are a trusted source

https://www.si.com/golf/.amp/news/liv-golf-business-plan-coming-more-into-focus-expansion-possible-2024

Majors, Monopolies, Megabucks And Donald Trump: Inside The Business Of The New Saudi Golf League

With limited revenue, astronomical signing bonuses and enormous purses, LIV Golf has run up quite a tab. But the real surprise is that Saudi Arabia’s nascent golf super league isn’t just “sports washing.” It could turn a profit—and soon.

www.forbes.com

Now these reading the second article is the part that’s been highlighted by carpus people in regards being sustainable

“
But here’s the rub: None of that is going to happen without a major U.S. broadcast deal. It’s typically the biggest revenue stream for any sports property, and it’s hard to see an opening for LIV. Except for Fox, all the major U.S. networks already have golf deals with the PGA Tour.

Televised golf is a big business. The PGA Tour reportedly earns roughly $700 million annually for its media rights in the States. In the U.S., LIV Golf is streamed over YouTube. But maybe patience—and signing up more elite players—is the key.”


“
The money may be flowing, but that doesn’t change the reality that LIV’s long-term sustainability will come down to “broadcast revenue followed by sponsorship revenue,” Khosla says. LIV executives say they’re keeping their options open, and outside of the major TV networks, a streaming deal with a big-tech company, like Apple or Amazon, might be an option as well. Khosla acknowledges that the conflict with the PGA Tour has “definitely impacted our ability to go to market with every sponsor that’s out there” but stresses that the process is going well and usually happens over a nine-month sales cycle.

A broadcast deal would help in other ways, too, like lessening the need for the massive sign-up bonuses LIV has offered to recruit players from the PGA Tour. In part, those have made up for diminished endorsement income. Many LIV golfers, including Johnson, Mickelson and 2020 U.S. Open champion Bryson DeChambeau, have lost sponsorship deals when they left the PGA Tour, partly because of a lack of TV exposure.”


Now that’s from August 2022 - so what’s happened since in regards the media deal ? CW network

Those articles are not saying anything different to what’s been said by others

 

[PJ87]

Jay Monahan ( Commissioner of the PGA Tour) & Phil Mickleson (Thought by many to be the PGA Tour Slayer)

Is that why he is dressed for a funeral?

 

[AddisonRoad]

The idea that Saudi Arabia's investment fund will be willing to run huge losses in perpetuity to prop up this golf league is false. You can say this is being a "mindreader," but it's clear to anyone looking at previous Saudi investments that the country expects a return, even if the idea is ill-conceived and turns out badly. At the end of the day, they're paying investment advisors to diversify their oil money to ensure the country is prepared for the future. Saudis have pulled money from plenty of bad investments in the past, including Credit Suisse just a couple of months ago. If it continues in its current form, there's no way this make it past the first contract periods (allegedly 2026).

 

[cleveland52]

As I've been saying, I think LIV should get OWGR points. The interesting discussion is how to fairly allot them. Fair to them, fair to the established tours that meet the existing criteria. The problem is how to have that discussion and get everyone to agree so that the rankings become valid and reliable again. It's self-evident that LIV events are lower standard and easier to win - just look at the winners and compare how they fared when they were on the main tours. That there is any debate over that just shows how futile an exercise it'll be - LIV moaning will switch from "it's unfair we don't get points" to "it's unfair we get less points". I'm already bored of it.

Meanwhile it's golf and the golf fan that's missing out. The pre-liv golf ecosystem was far from ideal but at least we had a tangible golf "hierarchy" that lent value to every event. Nowadays, some of the best players in the world play in a pretty meaningless series of events and the PGA Tour and DP World tour have been diminished by the loss of (some of) those players.

As I've been saying, I think LIV should get OWGR points. The interesting discussion is how to fairly allot them. Fair to them, fair to the established tours that meet the existing criteria. The problem is how to have that discussion and get everyone to agree so that the rankings become valid and reliable again. It's self-evident that LIV events are lower standard and easier to win - just look at the winners and compare how they fared when they were on the main tours. That there is any debate over that just shows how futile an exercise it'll be - LIV moaning will switch from "it's unfair we don't get points" to "it's unfair we get less points". I'm already bored of it.

Meanwhile it's golf and the golf fan that's missing out. The pre-liv golf ecosystem was far from ideal but at least we had a tangible golf "hierarchy" that lent value to every event. Nowadays, some of the best players in the world play in a pretty meaningless series of events and the PGA Tour and DP World tour have been diminished by the loss of (some of) those players. Very rapidly we're getting to the situation that the only golf that matters at all are the majors.

There's a great many of us who think totally different. Some, hardly think that golf is diminished by the exit of the LIV players from the PGAT. For many, regular tournaments matter. There's a back half of the PGAT that matters a great deal and the players trying to keep their card or get into different events, etc...

Pro golf is much more than the Majors if you look at the totality of the Tour.

Most golfers that I know have very little interest in LIV golf or it's players. The format is of no interest. Maybe that will change, who knows.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Pro golf is much more than the Majors if you look at the totality of the Tour.

The totality of which Tour?

 

[BrianM]

Professional golf's political meltdown

PROFESSIONAL GOLF'S POLITICAL MELTDOWN. For more than a year, professional golf has been engulfed in a civil war over money and politics. The cause has been the creation of a new tour, funded by the vastly wealthy government of Saudi Arabia, to challenge the dominance — some would say the monopoly…

www.washingtonexaminer.com

Worth a read in my opinion.

 

[BubbaP]

I guess when looking at those three players alone in regards their major records and especially Howell and Uihlein

Uihlein- no top 25’s and only 3 cuts made in the 11 majors he has played since 2011

Howell - 1 top 10 in the 50 majors he has played in since 2001

I don’t think they will be missed at either major , they didn’t pull up trees when they were on the PGAT

Grace record is certainly a lot better and has been consistent over a few majors and prob should have won one and it’s still at the age and Level that could see him challenge for a major and is a miss at the major

Not clear if you misunderstood the post. I wasn't saying "they would be missed". Like Kaz I was discussing how the powers that be decide who makes it in.
Were you planning to dissect the major records of Alex Smalley & Patrick Rodgers also for balance?
One if the great things about golf is form can change in both directions pretty quickly. Before early 2022 many would look at Scheffler's record to date negatively and look at him now.
Obviously none of those guys are in his class, and there are all the caveats about the league etc. but they have all been hitting a little white ball mostly well in recent times. As Kaz was alluding to, how to compare.

 

[seochris]

So what's the end game? As previously stated the Saudis are not going to fund these eye watering numbers for ever.....As I see it there are two possibilities.....

1) it all goes tits up and collapses and everybody goes home.
2) the LIV tour grows in popularity to a point where it has a platform which spawns its own world wide tour. Events become sponsored with as yet unidentified sponsors. Contacts for TV and advertising etc... The 'teams' are sold off as teams and eventually end up similar to a football clubs or F1 with individuals. PEF even equipment manufacturers. Players are salaried, bought and sold...etc.

I can't see this happening really but I would really like to know what their exit plan is...surely they must have one?

 

[cleveland52]

So what's the end game? As previously stated the Saudis are not going to fund these eye watering numbers for ever.....As I see it there are two possibilities.....

1) it all goes tits up and collapses and everybody goes home.
2) the LIV tour grows in popularity to a point where it has a platform which spawns its own world wide tour. Events become sponsored with as yet unidentified sponsors. Contacts for TV and advertising etc... The 'teams' are sold off as teams and eventually end up similar to a football clubs or F1 with individuals. PEF even equipment manufacturers. Players are salaried, bought and sold...etc.

I can't see this happening really but I would really like to know what their exit plan is...surely they must have one?

The end game is to destroy the PGAT and break even. Owning the main Tour and have every top tour player work for them is the ultimate goal. Will it happen, who knows.

 

[Backsticks]

So what's the end game? As previously stated the Saudis are not going to fund these eye watering numbers for ever.....As I see it there are two possibilities.....

1) it all goes tits up and collapses and everybody goes home.
2) the LIV tour grows in popularity to a point where it has a platform which spawns its own world wide tour. Events become sponsored with as yet unidentified sponsors. Contacts for TV and advertising etc... The 'teams' are sold off as teams and eventually end up similar to a football clubs or F1 with individuals. PEF even equipment manufacturers. Players are salaried, bought and sold...etc.

I can't see this happening really but I would really like to know what their exit plan is...surely they must have one?

It could definitely salvage something by becoming a better version of the Champions tour.

Yes, semi-exhibition semi-tournament, the point wouldnt be to really have wins that add to any golfers career, but to take the good group of the greats of the game touring the world. People would go and see it I think.

By accident, or failure or the original goal, they have sort of fallen into this solution. They should take it and drive it. Yes, a lot of dodgy regime countries will be included, but LIV is not to be faulted for that - it is just the world and sport today. People still love to see the majors, multi tourney winners, former world #1s, or Ryder Cup heroes past, just to say they have seen them. A key would be clearing out the no name dross who just drag down the tone. But there are 20 worthwhile golfers on the Champions tour today, that waved the cash, would probably jump. Harrington, Stricker, Jimenez, Clarke, Singh, Monty, Goosen, etc.
Clear out the Chase Koepkas and the likes, and there would be a good touring circus of celebs and they could truly grow the game in less golf dense areas of the world.

 

[BubbaP]

So what's the end game? As previously stated the Saudis are not going to fund these eye watering numbers for ever.....As I see it there are two possibilities.....

1) it all goes tits up and collapses and everybody goes home.
2) the LIV tour grows in popularity to a point where it has a platform which spawns its own world wide tour. Events become sponsored with as yet unidentified sponsors. Contacts for TV and advertising etc... The 'teams' are sold off as teams and eventually end up similar to a football clubs or F1 with individuals. PEF even equipment manufacturers. Players are salaried, bought and sold...etc.

I can't see this happening really but I would really like to know what their exit plan is...surely they must have one?

An interesting question. I suspect one goal is to have Saudi established as a golf tourism destination. Whether that is possible I have no idea.
I don't agree with #11727, the PGAT organisation is covering thousands of professionals - I imagine their goal is more about gaining a 'seat at the table'. If successful then the PGAT organisation's hold over mens professional golf may be lessoned a bit as a side effect.
As mentioned it could all bomb within the next year. If reports are believed the initial funding is there until end of 2025 so probably it becomes clearer mid 2025.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Well at least there is one list Liv Golfers are heading in the right direction.

If you do a top 10 list of 2023 top money winners at the end of the year for all golfers how many Liv Golfers would be in the top 10.?

Remember PGAT players play way more tournaments.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658884146213552143