LIV Golf

[PJ87]

You absolutely can though. Would you invest in a start up electric car firm today or Tesla?

Plenty invest in Tesla now but wouldn't have 10 years ago.

Business takes time and patience. Just because established competitions have been set up in the past with sponsors on board it doesn't mean its the only way to do things - its the slower way and one that LIV doesn't need to worry about initially. They have the start up capital themselves!

woah woah woah dont bring EVs into the debate LIV already triggers people enough ...

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes they do, but you've been challenging with the same argument for about 500 pages of thread and you still wont open your eyes to the reality of the situation and are very much blinkered in your thinking when it comes to LIV.

Bryson is a brand on his own, Phil, Sergio, DJ the list goes on. These guys can sign Grealish type deals for their franchises to create cash flow.

Villa are paid by Castore to make their kit. Why cant Majesticks sign the same type of deal for their team down the line?

Omega sponsor Rory, whos to say they wont fancy a slice of the 4 Aces pie?

The only "world of difference" is that franchises like Man City can say to Qatar airways that they have media rights to all players and therefore demand a higher fee on sponsorship.

Individual player deals are likely to be smaller.

Enter LIV franchises where 4 players club together and all of a sudden you have more to offer your sponsors.

If there was something to point to as some evidence to show that all this stuff that people say will happen could

The reality is - it’s a league that has very limited sponsers , has to give away tickets to get people to go, has no major media deals ,


The reality is that without PIF spending £1bn it falls on its arse

Where is the evidence that could be used to point to things happening down the line when they can’t even get any of the basics at the moment.

Castors makes Villas kit - they then sell millions of those tops each year to the millions of Villa fans - those tops are then seen worldwide every single week by billions - so why would a manufacturer pay millions to make Majestics kit when how many are really going to buy them ? They aren’t being seen by billions ? - is it relevant anywhere near the level needed for a company to start to be a kit sponser for a team. And even then how much would they pay ? Nike for example pay £80mil for Liverpool ? Would a clothing company pay more than £1mil

Yes individual sponsorship will be smaller but the figures being talked about to make LIV sustainable need to be around £1bn a year. That a heck of a lot of sponserships


If LIV managed to get major sponsors or even a major media deal then maybe the talk could be about franchises etc

 

[Mel Smooth]

If there was something to point to as some evidence to show that all this stuff that people say will happen could

The reality is - it’s a league that has very limited sponsers , has to give away tickets to get people to go, has no major media deals ,


The reality is that without PIF spending £1bn it falls on its arse

Where is the evidence that could be used to point to things happening down the line when they can’t even get any of the basics at the moment.

Castors makes Villas kit - they then sell millions of those tops each year to the millions of Villa fans - those tops are then seen worldwide every single week by billions - so why would a manufacturer pay millions to make Majestics kit when how many are really going to buy them ? They aren’t being seen by billions ? - is it relevant anywhere near the level needed for a company to start to be a kit sponser for a team. And even then how much would they pay ? Nike for example pay £80mil for Liverpool ? Would a clothing company pay more than £1mil

Yes individual sponsorship will be smaller but the figures being talked about to make LIV sustainable need to be around £1bn a year. That a heck of a lot of sponserships


If LIV managed to get major sponsors or even a major media deal then maybe the talk could be about franchises etc

You are simply using the argument that because a franchise system doesn’t exist in golf, it won’t work.
If it did exist, then LIV wouldn’t have gotten off the ground.

PGAT has a turnover of 1.5 billion approximately doesn’t it, so the money is there - even in a product with limited appeal. A tour that has loads of players that don’t hold any interest to most golf fans, plenty of shots played that are fundamentally meaningless in relation to the final outcome. Traditional tour golf has lots of “padding” around the action that is happening at the sharp end.

LIV doesn’t have any of that, every player can contribute from the first shot to the last, it’s fast paced, and condensed from a tournament playing time of maybe 40 to 45 hours, into less than 15.

It’s hugely different and as we can now see, highly entertaining.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

last year was a beta year with liv.

this year is the test really.

already spiced up the masters which was great because you actually got the fullest field (in terms of the players like smith, brooks, DJ, reed) competing with the others

I love the majors and will just make them even more interesting

Does that really follow? After all, the top names already played the majors with/against each other

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You are simply using the argument that because a franchise system doesn’t exist in golf, it won’t work.
If it did exist, then LIV wouldn’t have gotten off the ground.

PGAT has a turnover of 1.5 billion approximately doesn’t it, so the money is there - even in a product with limited appeal. A tour that has loads of players that don’t hold any interest to most golf fans, plenty of shots played that are fundamentally meaningless in relation to the final outcome. Traditional tour golf has lots of “padding” around the action that is happening at the sharp end.

LIV doesn’t have any of that, every player can contribute from the first shot to the last, it’s fast paced, and condensed from a tournament playing time of maybe 40 to 45 hours, into less than 15.

It’s hugely different and as we can now see, highly entertaining.

So you’re basing it all on a belief that LIV will be more popular and more entertaining?

Yet the facts don’t appear to back that up ?

Fundamentally it’s still the same sport - people put the golf ball in the hole over 18 holes , it being done quickly doesn’t mean it is more popular or more entertaining.

The money is there for the PGAT because it has the sponsers and the world wide media deals - two things that LIV don’t have and can’t seem to get.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

By the same token, there are clubs in League 2 on crowds of less than 2000 and what about clubs in areas like Ryman (Kingstonian as an example) that sell replica shirts to a limited audience. It comes down to a revenue stream and the cost to produce is not millions. These shirts all get sponsored so those investing must see a return for that. Given time, replica shirts would represent a good source of income as LIV progresses (assuming it does) and at that point will attract sponsorship

 

[PJ87]

Does that really follow? After all, the top names already played the majors with/against each other

yes it does because when was the last time we saw for example cam smith play along side rory? it was the open..

fans just want to see all the best golfers play and now the majors are the 4 events where you will get the fullest field. where as before the players for example was a very strong field. now its missing a few excellent players.

 

[PJ87]

By the same token, there are clubs in League 2 on crowds of less than 2000 and what about clubs in areas like Ryman (Kingstonian as an example) that sell replica shirts to a limited audience. It comes down to a revenue stream and the cost to produce is not millions. These shirts all get sponsored so those investing must see a return for that. Given time, replica shirts would represent a good source of income as LIV progresses (assuming it does) and at that point will attract sponsorship

there have been rumours that sponsors and TV companies in the UK and the US only havent rushed to sign up because of the PGA tour threatening to pull some of their coverage ...

 

[Mel Smooth]

So you’re basing it all on a belief that LIV will be more popular and more entertaining?

Yet the facts don’t appear to back that up ?

Fundamentally it’s still the same sport - people put the golf ball in the hole over 18 holes , it being done quickly doesn’t mean it is more popular or more entertaining.

The money is there for the PGAT because it has the sponsers and the world wide media deals - two things that LIV don’t have and can’t seem to get.

Will it be more popular? Who knows.

It’s already more entertaining than a run of the mill tour event though, and so those execs writing the sponsorship cheques that prop up the PGAT will no doubt have had their heads turned by LIV. They aren’t loyal to Monaghan Phil, they just want exposure for their brand. Imagine if FedEx had sponsored the watering hole. It would have been all over every sporting media outlet in the world on Monday.

That’s where LIV is headed.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Will it be more popular? Who knows.

It’s already more entertaining than a run of the mill tour event though, and so those execs writing the sponsorship cheques that prop up the PGAT will no doubt have had their heads turned by LIV. They aren’t loyal to Monaghan Phil, they just want exposure for their brand. Imagine if FedEx had sponsored the watering hole. It would have been all over every sporting media outlet in the world on Monday.

That’s where LIV is headed.

Surely that’s all very subjective when it’s comes to what someone finds entertaining? What about golf fans that don’t find beer and beer cups being thrown around the place as entertaining in golf ?

Why would the sponsers have their heads turned when they currently sponser events that are covered worldwide on main stream sports channels - they get exposure on the others tours that they don’t get on LIV

And would Fed Ex want to be associated with it all ? Fed Ex get constant exposure from their events - nothing LIV does comes close to the Fed Ex events and playoffs

Is that where LIV is heading - party’s on every hole at every event ?

 

[Mel Smooth]

Surely that’s all very subjective when it’s comes to what someone finds entertaining? What about golf fans that don’t find beer and beer cups being thrown around the place as entertaining in golf ?

Why would the sponsers have their heads turned when they currently sponser events that are covered worldwide on main stream sports channels - they get exposure on the others tours that they don’t get on LIV

And would Fed Ex want to be associated with it all ? Fed Ex get constant exposure from their events - nothing LIV does comes close to the Fed Ex events and playoffs

Is that where LIV is heading - party’s on every hole at every event ?

It is subjective, and tour golf is entertaining to older people. That’s a fact.
A sport that is played professionally by young people but is marketed at an older demographic, is missing a massive opportunity.
Phil, you might not like a hole where the crowd can go wild, you might not like music being pumped out all day, but lots of people do. The atmosphere in Adelaide was electric, people that were there saying how fantastic it was. That’s the blueprint LIV want. It isn’t going to fail because you don’t like it, infact, that is probably key to its success.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Liv should be looking at Liv Adelaide as the blueprint for success.
Less events in the USA and more in regions that are ready to embrace their product.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It is subjective, and tour golf is entertaining to older people. That’s a fact.
A sport that is played professionally by young people but is marketed at an older demographic, is missing a massive opportunity.
Phil, you might not like a hole where the crowd can go wild, you might not like music being pumped out all day, but lots of people do. The atmosphere in Adelaide was electric, people that were there saying how fantastic it was. That’s the blueprint LIV want. It isn’t going to fail because you don’t like it, infact, that is probably key to its success.

So the question is - are they there to watch golf or there to get drunk and enjoy the music ? Is it a music concert they are there for or to watch golf

Golf has been looking to younger players for years and I’m not sure what marketing you see but don’t see it being aimed at older demographics?

Aussies enjoy a good event and just like the Waste Management ( which far out strips in terms of numbers ) it’s great for those that enjoy that. But what happens when there is no party hole , are they not interested in the sport then ? It works with its one offs each year and not the normal

There have been multiple events on both main tours with big crowds ( paying ) without the need to have party holes

Have been to Opens and British Masters and seen plenty of younger people enjoying the golf.

Is the blueprint - have party holes ? Doesn’t really say much for the golf being played if it’s about having a party hole. If that’s the key to their success then how is that going to look to PIF and the strict alcohol rules in their country.

It seems that from the weekend they would be better off playing all the events in Australia

 

[Mel Smooth]

So the question is - are they there to watch golf or there to get drunk and enjoy the music ? Is it a music concert they are there for or to watch golf

Golf has been looking to younger players for years and I’m not sure what marketing you see but don’t see it being aimed at older demographics?

Aussies enjoy a good event and just like the Waste Management ( which far out strips in terms of numbers ) it’s great for those that enjoy that. But what happens when there is no party hole , are they not interested in the sport then ? It works with its one offs each year and not the normal

There have been multiple events on both main tours with big crowds ( paying ) without the need to have party holes

Have been to Opens and British Masters and seen plenty of younger people enjoying the golf.

Is the blueprint - have party holes ? Doesn’t really say much for the golf being played if it’s about having a party hole. If that’s the key to their success then how is that going to look to PIF and the strict alcohol rules in their country.

It seems that from the weekend they would be better off playing all the events in Australia

How much LIV have you watched Phil?

 

[AussieKB]

How much LIV have you watched Phil?

Come on now Phil does not watch LIV just bad mouths it.....

 

[Deleted member 15344]

How much LIV have you watched Phil?

Not sure it’s relevant to what I posted but only what I have seen posted on social media

Unless you think that’s not a fair representation

It looks like the recent LIV event was the first real big success they have had with the level of spectator numbers being around the same as say the British Masters - about 60k

If that’s replicated across the rest of events coming up then maybe they will no longer need to give away most of the tickets.

 

[evemccc]

So the question is - are they there to watch golf or there to get drunk and enjoy the music ? Is it a music concert they are there for or to watch golf

Golf has been looking to younger players for years and I’m not sure what marketing you see but don’t see it being aimed at older demographics?

Aussies enjoy a good event and just like the Waste Management ( which far out strips in terms of numbers ) it’s great for those that enjoy that. But what happens when there is no party hole , are they not interested in the sport then ? It works with its one offs each year and not the normal

There have been multiple events on both main tours with big crowds ( paying ) without the need to have party holes

Have been to Opens and British Masters and seen plenty of younger people enjoying the golf.

Is the blueprint - have party holes ? Doesn’t really say much for the golf being played if it’s about having a party hole. If that’s the key to their success then how is that going to look to PIF and the strict alcohol rules in their country.

It seems that from the weekend they would be better off playing all the events in Australia

Phil…please, just be consistent..

Some context for you..

1) The idea of a ‘party hole’ is obvs from Phoenix, a more than hyped-up PGA Tour event. Celebrated by the usual Liv detractors like NLU and no doubt Sky Sports

2) JT for definite and Spieth(?) two key PGA Tour players in terms of their ranking, stock on the tour and how they’re used to market the PGA Tour, were chugging beers on the first tee of their Ryder Cup match…A comp no doubt you hold dear, and clearly at the highest echelon of the mainstream of golf

Again, this was widely celebrated not castigated by the media mainstream

3) If you ever attend the Women’s Open or have marketing emails from them and the BMW Wentworth event, you’ll see that who the headline act is, is one of the PRIMARY things that they’re marketing, to try to encourage ticket sales


While I don’t disagree with some of your points, I think some more consistency and context would help you — otherwise any argument comes off as rather one-eyed

 

[AussieKB]

Phil…please, just be consistent..

Some context for you..

1) The idea of a ‘party hole’ is obvs from Phoenix, a more than hyped-up PGA Tour event. Celebrated by the usual Liv detractors like NLU and no doubt Sky Sports

2) JT for definite and Spieth(?) two key PGA Tour players in terms of their ranking, stock on the tour and how they’re used to market the PGA Tour, were chugging beers on the first tee of their Ryder Cup match…A comp no doubt you hold dear, and clearly at the highest echelon of the mainstream of golf

Again, this was widely celebrated not castigated by the media mainstream

3) If you ever attend the Women’s Open or have marketing emails from them and the BMW Wentworth event, you’ll see that who the headline act is, is one of the PRIMARY things that they’re marketing, to try to encourage ticket sales


While I don’t disagree with some of your points, I think some more consistency and context would help you — otherwise any argument comes off as rather one-eyed

Phil is consistent, he does not like LIV

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Phil…please, just be consistent..

Some context for you..

1) The idea of a ‘party hole’ is obvs from Phoenix, a more than hyped-up PGA Tour event. Celebrated by the usual Liv detractors like NLU and no doubt Sky Sports

2) JT for definite and Spieth(?) two key PGA Tour players in terms of their ranking, stock on the tour and how they’re used to market the PGA Tour, were chugging beers on the first tee of their Ryder Cup match…A comp no doubt you hold dear, and clearly at the highest echelon of the mainstream of golf

Again, this was widely celebrated not castigated by the media mainstream

3) If you ever attend the Women’s Open or have marketing emails from them and the BMW Wentworth event, you’ll see that who the headline act is, is one of the PRIMARY things that they’re marketing, to try to encourage ticket sales


While I don’t disagree with some of your points, I think some more consistency and context would help you — otherwise any argument comes off as rather one-eyed

Here’s is something to help you out to clarify my “consistency”

1. I’m not a fan of the Waste Management and what happens at that hole - you are more than welcome to check and see that I was just as critical of what happens. Don’t really care what NLU or Sky sports say - they don’t frame my opinion

2. Thomas and Spieths antics with the beer chugging were roundly criticised for by many and imo were a stain on the Ryder Cup and displayed behaviour that imo shouldn’t ever be seen in the competition. Again you can check the posts people made when it happened

3. I’m not sure what the post is about Womens Open or BMW - when they market it they normally show a picture of the main players that are playing that week - sorry I’m not clear what that point is about

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[Mel Smooth]

Not sure it’s relevant to what I posted but only what I have seen posted on social media

Unless you think that’s not a fair representation

It looks like the recent LIV event was the first real big success they have had with the level of spectator numbers being around the same as say the British Masters - about 60k

If that’s replicated across the rest of events coming up then maybe they will no longer need to give away most of the tickets.

So you don't watch it then.. certainly not enough to be on this forum telling us it won't work.

And can you link me to the source that says they've given away most of the tickets this year please...